Need your HELP (again) - a test to SCRATCH the bone/gums

General General TN & GPN (Old Site)
1

hi all...

i don't know what to do.

i know and feel something PHICALLY wrong in my jaw/gums..inside my mouth - right after the wisdom tooth -deep behind it - there is a spot where i feel the pain comes from .

i sometimes (NOT ofter) - touches it very hardand feel like it's the source of pain.

i told my dental specialist about it - she toched the spot- she admitted the bone inside my mouth is a bit larger on that side. and more "boney".

also on the outside of my face the bone there is a bit more "boney"/sharp (and my first "bone scan" showed a "hot spot" in that area).

i feel like they should "get inside" and scrath the inside of my gums.. maybe a NEEDLE from the injection got stuck there (serieoulsy) .. and i'm sufdfering all this time for nothing.

and see what's there pressering it (a doctor also told me at first my gums were "thicker" there)

i don't now where to go... been to almost EVERY SPECIALIST in this country - and i know it's EASYER for them to say it's "neuropathic" pain - cause they don't really want to dwell into that (or simply cause they don't know what to do even if they wanted) - but i DO convinced - i should be taken a biopsy or to scratch that area.

the doctors first considered taking a biopsy from inside the gums (they saw a suspeced spot in the CT exactly where my pain is. but than they said it was just a SHADOW in the XRAYS. and no biopsy was taken.

i don't know where to go. where to BEG to be really reated, and not just with meds. even my doctors say there not sure whay my diagnosis IS. i have pain 24/7 a day all the time for 2 years : ( going from doctor to doctor .. why can't one just one hold for a second.. .and try to SEE the problem.

i know there is some procedure like GUM EXPOSURE (i don't know if it can really see the inside of the mouth... or maybe it can cause more pain or damage).. but why at least not consider that ..

i know today the MRI'S mostly can't show small problems in the mouth.. but i'm sure something there.. stuck in my gum.. or bone inside my mouth... just be taken out or scratched out.. but who would do that : ( one can not live like that. and i don't take meds as an option.

sorry. just had to say it out. and sorry for this being my second post these two days.

night to you all

2

Today's MRI and digital panoramic X-rays generally have resolution below 1 mm. They see pretty well. I suspect you may be dealing with a variation on trigeminal neuropathic pain that has been called "atypical odontalgia". It can be considered a variation on trigeminal neuralgia that is distributed almost entirely in the teeth. Gum exposure won't help it, particularly if the type of exposure called "curettment" is used -- which involves slicing open the gum right down to the bone and looking for infection in the tiny bone cavities.

If you're going to do anything out of desperation, then I'd suggest that you talk with an oro-facial pain specialist first, and discuss having antibiotics injected into the bony area which you suspect is a source of your pain. If you don't get a positive response to such a shot, then I'd have to speculate that you probably don't have an abscess or indeed any kind of dental problem.

Regards and best,

Red

3

PS: if you don't take meds as an option then you're going to live a life of PAIN, Nir. That is not a wise decision.

Regards,

4

Dear Red -

thank you for the wonderful answer and gave me something to think about.

and be glad if you look at the other questions :

i know i (or we) sound desperate and want to "take out half or face already" - but it's just because the pain is 24/7 and i can FEEL something is stuck or infected there. and i hear, here is Israel some suceess stories of people who were told to give up - and take the meds for years - they didn't - and found thier dental solution.

please a few questions :
about the MRI - i know it's mostly to see if a blood pressure is pressuting some nerve . but if the nerve is damages... like a neuroma - i undertrand no MRI will see that.

again - your suggestion about antibiotic injections i never heard of it - and it seems interesting. i don't think i can find a doctor here who does that . that's the depression - i have to bring motivation to doctors to try stuff on me.

i am a very reasnobale guy - and i know and afraid that every prodecure of cutting the gums... etc... can cause me more harm or leave me diasbled..... or hitting more nerves, and of course i'm terrifyed.

the "problem" with my story - that i know how it started - right ater a tooth work. ( i was totally a healthy young guy before.) and although all my DENTAL xrays are fine - many symptoms doesn't fit according also to some doctors :

as i said - ive done a bone scan - which shows a corolation between my pain area to the "hot spot' in the test.

my bone on the left side of face canged.. got thinner or something as my doc. said.

and my throat hearts all the time on one side - and many doctors who touched my throat says there are small "nod lymphes" (is that the word?) which i can feel them. but the US it did went ok. showed only small lypmph).

i'm not a doctor - but i don't think the pain that comes from the "brain" can cause enlarged nod lymph. that only means there's a vert small innflamation or infection ther.

also i've done a CT of the jaws (very good test in my opinion) - and all the doctors here though it was OK. except for two specialist here in israel who considered there might me some point there they should take a biopsy. right in the place my pain is.

but after many many many consoltants - they looked at the disc and said that the suspicious spots were only "shadows" /dirt in the photo. so no biopsy for now.

and im' exauted from all of this and it's not going anywhere.. and i'm going with this pain every sec.

don't know what to do. really trying (alone) to fight for me life. i don't want to do something desperate . i want to live - but not like that. why a person have to BEG to doctors to try to find whay's wrong with him. it's not a joke . it's not a 3-days FLU. it's suffering every single minute of every single day for years.

but the way , red , my pain is not REALLY on the teeth i've noticed. it's the gums.. and like deep in the bone or in the "meat" far behind the wisdom tooth (why don't i removed yet the wisdom theeth - i don't know! that's another step to be taken). of corse the pain is also like soaring neck all the time. etc.

5

continue :

so my way to go from now is :

find a docor who'll be willing to open the gums and look /take biopsy of the bone.

about CT scan - which CT scan you said is shown most of the detailes ?

i know many people here is ISrael - ALL the XRAYS and CT didn't show an infextion that was shown ONLY after opening the thooth.

by the way - doesn't strong antibiotcs taken for long can help ?

i now here in israel there was a girl suffered greatly - nothing helped - only two meds - only when she took antibiotic called DALACINE and a med called ARCOXIA . while tooking them both the pain reduced greatly.

but because it was anyibiotic - she couldn't take it for long. after stopping the antibiotic the jaw/teeth pain returned. of course the doctors can't explain that , and say there's noting wrong with her dentally etc.

and she is still lost.

wish the proper doctors which this is thier majorship would REALLY try harder to find and understand.

good day to you all , and Red

6

The point I was making, Cleo, is that Atypical Odontalgia really isn't a disorder distinct from trigeminal neuropathic pain. It's treated much the same way with the same meds, and like neuropathic pain there is reason as you suggest to avoid destructive procedures. The term translates "unusual tooth pain", which doesn't seem particularly helpful. It is often characterized by pain in one or a few teeth that seems to "travel" or move on to the adjacent teeth following a root canal or extraction. I've talked to patients during the past 17 years who had all of their teeth on one side extracted -- one at a time -- because a dentist failed to recognize the pain he was seeing as having a neurological origin.

Terminology in facial pain is still undergoing serious debate and argument between practitioners. Although doctors assign a title of "trigeminal neuralgia" to episodic electric shock stabs of pain in the trigeminal distribution, it is not at all certain that the underlying mechanism is actually a neuralgia -- e.g., a condition of nerve inflammation. In many MVD patients, pain relief is nearly instantaneous after they wake up from the procedure. It is hard to credit such an instantaneous process to relief of inflammation, which in concept should take days.

So-called "atypical trigeminal neuralgia" is even more difficult to assign to a specific mechanism of damage, though it seems to have some of the character of central nervous system sensitization -- along the lines of what occurs in deafferentiation pain, which is a CNS sensitization due to loss of sensation in peripheral nerves. So there is still much for medical science to learn about mechanism, that may contribute to better treatment as it is learned.

Regards, Red

7

dear cleo - thanks for that !

altough i admit i can't see much different in the colors (maybe a little grey) - i think this all "field" of bone problem is, in itself a "grey area", so to speak.

also - i think this CT SCAN of the JAWS is really the best scan to show something (i any scan can shows).

when i did this scan- the doctors said he sees "grey areas" in the CT , where my pain is. but nothing defenetive.

after examinig the CD of the test - he said it was just "shadows" in the SCAN. and not a real problem.

i don't think it's a coincidence. i know taking a biopsy from that area is a problem and can make me more damage... but still...

thakns cleo for the photoes.

8

my story : (guess i'll miss some details) :

1. two yeats ago - i went to the dentist after not bieng for a very long time.

2. i'm done fitst a teeth cleaning (sorry for my bad english)

3. than in one month i started a few dental works in several teeth . each week another tooth.

4. than i've done a "deep filling" tratement on tooth no. 37 (lower jaw on the left). 2 days after that treameny MAJOR pains aroused in the lower left tooth. after i bit something to eat (indication of a crack, right? !).

i took some painkillers... and went on the same week to to another deep filling in tooth no. 25 (upper left jaw).

than the pain in the left side of mouth continues... i "lived" on painkileers every few hours... it was MAJOR pain .. i went every day to the clinic with tears in my eyes from pain. i was naive and belived them "it will pass".

5. major pains all day . "lived" on painkillers . woke up at night with pain.

6. a month later i insisted they do a root canal on tooth no.37.

7. it didn't help.

8. month passes. i've had many kinds of pains ... on the lowers but also on the upper side ...when air touched my teeth.. when i swalloed my saliva . i was afrain to breeth.

9. at the same time (but after the whole thing stared) i got neck pains.. thay went to the upper back. my left hand would "fall asleep" at night. i never had those pains. i connected these pains to the whole situation.

10. done a scan bone ct - which showed a hot spot - where the pain is. doctors see that as meaningless.

11. MRI + ct - were fine.

12. took neurological meds (lyrica + elatrolet ) for 6 month - didn't really help.

13. today - no meds. only sleeping pills. all day pain.. burning in the jaw. it is CONECTED sometime to movements of my body, left hand , or neck movements . at night i can't put my head to sleep - the position on the neck/had increases the pain TERRIBLY .

and whan in doesn't "pain" - it feels like something is stuck in the gums.. or cheecks.

also - my face got a change in it. it was more visible at first. it got deformed a bit ... one side was slightly swollen - but now less.. but the doctors claimed they never say me before - so they can't say if i was always like that or not .

one doctor said my bones god changed in two years.. on the one side - which is not common. (he said it happens to people .. when they're 50 .. not 35 as i am).

i think it's also a sign.. of an unseen inflammation i have there.

i've heard here in Israel of at least 2 poeple told me they had it - and also got a change /swollen in thier face. (which, by the way is not typical to a nerve damage).

14. again - about the pain - i don't now how to describe it - when it's "bad" (and i have a bad attack every day -it's like something stuck in my gums and trying to pull itseld through the jaw. also my neck hurts.. like a throat hurts.. only on the left side. (And ear also hurts). when it doesn't "hurt" its annoying/slight burning every other minute of the day.

i put a night guard also during the day ... it's a bit helps me.. don't know why. maybe it relaxes the muscles. or don't let my teeth touch each other (it's a shrot Night Guard that was cut so it won't hurt my two problematic teeth)

by the way - i have my two wisdom teeth on that side.

i know i write a lot . you don't have to read it or response :) i wrote it also to put things in order also for me.

thanks !

nir

9

Dear Nir Morita,
I am so sorry that you are in such great pain for so long. I am no doctor and have poor knowledge on medical literature , so I may not be able to offer any good advice. However, I can relate my experience and hope it offers some help.
My pain also started in the gum. I took antibiotic for one month and it did not help. I did a root canal treatment and it made the pain worse. Then it was suspected that I might have cracked tooth, and of course there wasn’t any. Finally, I managed to see a pain specialist in the Dept of oral and maxillofacial surgery who diagnose that I had TN. I was refractory to the medicines and was depressed . Then she admitted me to the hospital and give me a number of nerve blocks that numbed my gum . I also took a lot of pills ( I did not know what ) that made me sleep most of the time. My pain was ‘reset’ and by the time I was discharged , I was pain free. I continued to take Amitriptiline and Clonazepam after that and was in remission for 5 months.
What Cleo said may be right , and as there are so many opinions, you need to decide what is best for you. If you asked my opinion, I would suggest you try different medicines and if everything failed, then you consider surgery. I am always fearful of surgery because I feel that failed surgery can cause more damages.
Best wishes and blessings,
Seow.

10

Dear Cleo - many many thanks for the so much informative (even if graphic) link.

my english is not that good - i can't read it all (also requires patience).

i have some questions to ask - i was also thinking about a needle that god stuck. how did the doctors found the needle and removed it ? they traced it "on the spot" as the dental procedue went on. one of my fears is that a needle god stuck in my gums and the skin "grew itself" over it over time - and now no test will ever be able to find it .

how could they trace the needle ? it's such an intersting story. (heard of 2 stories like that in Isarel). one of a guy who suffered like this for 6 years. than on some scan - they saw the needle - only after 6 years. don't know which scan was it.

about the nerve you mentioned in the link... wow ! it does seems like the nerve "pumped" or got swollen. some doctors here told me that theory. they even thought my Buccal/(or Lingual) nerve got "bundled" like this. but no one really knows which test can show it for sure. do you ? (done CT scan + MRI. i don't think they are THAT sensitive to look at such things). also a major (but not nice) doctor here told me - that had they touch this area in my face - that could most defenitivly leave me paralyzred in part of my face !

i don't know :(

Seow W. - thank you so much for sharing. can i ask - when the doctor hospitalized you and done the injection - were they easy to hospitalize ? i mean - we talked about it here - most of the time we can be in great pain but no one really see from the outside the pain (they can only see me look say or tired).. if they could really see the pain they would sure hotspitzlized me two years ago. how did it happened in your case ?

do you think it's the "amount" of injections that 'did the trick' or only one injection that was on the right spot ? i do injection treatment at a hospital - no sucess i think till now. maybe the pain got from 7 to 6 .. can't really be sure if the injections can do that. i wanted to ask my doctor next to do multiple injectnios. althout - he is no dentist - he does the injections only from the outside. : ( i don't know... every doctor had it's own speciallity. so tired of trying to go from doctor to doctor.

about the surgery damgaes - you are right. i wrote about it above. but on the other hand - i can't help the feeling that after my dental work - some needle or something god stuck there and to accept that instead of solving the problems i will only be temporarily managing it by the meds.. which are not so fun for themselves.

many many thank for you both.

11

It is not easy to get hospitalize unless you have the doctor’s referrer letter. I was in intense pain when I saw my doctor and was crying.I couldn’t eat and talk. My face was very sensitive to touch. Yes, I was very depressed . The doctor wrote a letter and had me hospitalized immediately.
I felt that it was the continual injections plus the medicines I was taking did the trick. I couldn’t feel the pain with all these injection. I was also on intravenous drip which might be some sorts of pain killers. I did not ask because I didn’t care . What was important to me was pain free. I was alseep most of the time . I did not have enough sleep for the past few weeks and I was very stressful. Therefore hospitalization reset all these .
I hope I answer your query .
Regards

12

dear Cleo -

my pain got also to my toungue -and my neorologist did wonder how the hell could it got there.

there also a deep spot (right behind my wisdom tooth - deep in the gums. the bone got stifer and i filll pressuring or pressing there is the root of pain.

there are some very obvious points of pain in my gums - that i just want to open them so they could see what's in there.

the docs. claim it's all neuropathic- nothing there just in my head transmitting pain to those area. but it's easy for them to say.

again - my pain strated after series of dental work - there is more reason to belive something happened during that work.

Seow- very interesring to hear you story - and good it ended like that ! sometimes a person has to take thing in his own hands and now waiting for them to happen.

i cried a lot at first at doctors. can't now. like can't cry anymore.

i've had an amazing pain doctor (which couldn't help) and i cried at hers - and she said she didn't often saw a grown man cries. which was so wierd cause she is a pain doctor . she sees people cry all the time i guess.

OH - but the way - i was recommended here on this board about a speciallist in Israel. i was at him way before. he is one of the two people here in Israel specializing in facial pain. they wrote a book about it. i was at the clinic about 4 times. he was very arrogant. last time i was i CRYING SO DEEPLY ... so despaired from the pain. and he told me - and wrote it down that to his impression my mental state affects much my pain - i shuold stop the neurological meds and go to lraen how to live with that. what is not undersstood of a man crying because he suffers unsufferable pain ?

13

Nir, I understand how the doctor thinks your mental attitude can effect your pain, but he should have explained this in a more sympathetic way. This does not mean your pain is not real, just that your mental attitude can help.

I think like many others on here, your nerve was damaged during your dental treatment. Are you taking medication now?

14


Nir, the specialist who dismisses your pain should be disciplined by his professional association, if not barred from practice. This kind of arrogance is simply unacceptable. Too many medical professionals are still convinced of the convenient mythology called "psycho-genic" pain. There is no such thing. Mental state can make you vulnerable to or more sensitive to pain. But there must always be some underlying physical disorder, which is the actual "cause".

Regards and best,

Red

15

dear Elaine - thank you so much for the words. i'm not on meds now. thank you for caring

dear Red- thank you for the incourage and understanding.

This doctor , by the way , we were talking about - is one of the two famous doctor is Israel for facial pain - and they have a world- wild name and also he and his partner wrote a book about facial pain (and i know that people also here talked about them) .

Whay "amazes" me in that - that if you call yourself a place for facial pain , and considered to be "the higher qutority" on that field - how can you not do more for people. i know from many people his course is medication and not any surgical procedure.

ARROGANCE IS the word i used to describe him ! (by the way - the translation of his name from hebrew to english i arrogance. i swear). i know of a woman here in Israel who was at him and after few sessions - left the examaning chair in anger - and never went back. and that's not the only story.

And i know of some girl (32 yo) which im in contact with - who was treated there for a few years - suffered greatly.

they offered her to go to theraputic seesions - didn't help. all the meds - didn't help.

she wanted to do the RF treatment.

this doctor told her she should now consider it - cause it won't help her, cause her pain is from the main nerve system.

She didn't listen to him, and after a period of time decided to do the RF treatment. .

today she is pain free.

had she listened to the doctor - she would be still with her TONS of meds, and suicidial thoughts (that's what she told me).

On the other hand - i must must say - that this clinic did treat me well - in terms that - every time i got there - they examined me more than an hour.. . the staff was supportive etc. i'm not to say they weren't trying.

but i also can write storyies about the arrogance i got from the senior doctors there.

Red- thank you so much for the suppory, and strengthening me.

Cleo - you are right. i do think the lingual nerve is connected. but again - i DONT know.

i used to have a LONG period of time i had aches in the end of my left toungue . i was always wondering if the pain was in the GUMS and the touching of the tounge aroused the pain. or was the pain in the end of the toungue - and by thouching the gums it aroused it.

i had times i couldn't place the toungue ig my mouth - cuase the left side - everywhere it touched - was pain.

one great neurologist also said i had lingual nerve danage , and he was very sympathic and said "damn, how did this dentist succeeded in hurting your toungue"

but - you know - since no one REALLY knows it's all speculations.

good thought you had there - it doesn't have to be that the needle is still there (and if so - is there ANY test that can show that ?) but could have been the injection just hurt the nerve and went out.

by the way - in that link - and some doctors also said that the nerve could have gone "tangled" how could that happen ? is there a test to show that ?

the injection was lidocaine if i recall. the filling was white - but since than has been replaced.. i have no "Crown" (i think that's the word) on that tooth now. i can't tell about my toungue - for two years now's the pain is quite worse - sometimes unbareble . toungue , gums, throat , and like deep deep in the back of the mouth.. i have a place i could once put my finger deep beyond the wisdom thooth and it was like it's the SOURCE of the pain. but can't be sure. , ... the worse of course is when it's straight on the tooth.


the last days i had some point in my temples that really hurt. and i never really have had headaches.


16

Cleo , Does damage / tangling occur in the ganglion or where the injection was given?

17

Cleo - since my jaw bone also changed - your theory sounds very logiacal to me. i feel that the change in my jaw bone is conceccted to something pressiring on nerve there. or an inflammation making a change in the bone - thus changing the nerves. and i guess it's taked only a VERY small change or shifting to cause great pain.

what made they open the jaw at your case ? was it a good doctor ? to you feel now your pain is much much better than it was ? or you are not there yet ? (in other words - did this operation of removing the needle made a real difference ? or are still in great suffering now ?)

i wanted to remove my tooth today - but got scared at the dentist office, since i had a slight (very slight) improvenmt the last days (still 24/7 pain. but a very bit less) and the dentist

i had a pain when pressing my gums.. like very deep "after" the wisdom thooth. but have done injections 3 weeks ago - maybe they a bit numb the pain.

also - when i move my jaw from left to right . the right side is painless - but the left side - when the inside cheek touches the bone insdie mouth- it triggers the pain.

*sigh*

18

I had that itchy feeilng in my gums and it felt like bugs were crawling around in my gum tissue. I was sent from dentist to Oral Surgeon, to Endodontist, back to Oral Surgeon and back to dentist with no answers. I begged for an MRI and no one felt it was necessary. I kept complaining like you that something was wrong. Nothing showed on an X-ray accept devitilized roots( dead teeth) on the left side post Orthognathic Surgery. I had an untreated/undiagnosed infection and when my Oral Surgeon opened me up, he found an active abscess. My nerves were severed so that I had no feeling of strong pain in my gums to feel the abscess and no swelling. Yours sounds like it could be nerve injury, or maybe even bacteria? I know that even the smallest amount of a foreign substance underneath your gum tissue can cause a lot of pain and if theres a nerve injury like me, you might not feel as much as a normal person with nerves could feel. Just thoughts?

So I understand your frustration and the only thing that I can think of is that you seek help from someone who is out of your state, a bioesthetics dentist or a dentist who uses something called an ICAT. An Icat is a three demensional view of mouth. It is new state of Art tool that some Oral Surgeons are using to see the nerve locations before they operate.

I highly recommend bioesthetic Oral Surgeons if you can find one in your area. Just good common sense and extensively trained dentist, in my opinion. I sure understand that you are frustated and you want an answer. Don't give up until you feel that your dentist or Oral Surgeon have done what you feel needs to be done to figure this out. It may be ghost pain or whatever they would call it when a nerve gets nicked or something? I don't know. My experience has been that I've been right most of the time and persistence paid off, and the help of the God too!!!

19

I also had two CT Scans that did not show the abcess but only shadows and fluid. But even getting the CT scans took finding a doctor who did not fear the possibility of discovering malpractice but rather understood from looking at me that my life might be in danger. I don't want to be a naysayer, but sometimes dentists/oral surgeons will pass a person around like a hot potato if they don't want to open a can of worms, or get involved in someone elses mistake. Not saying that anyone made a mistake in your mouth, just sharing my own very unfortunate experience.

I love medicine and dentistry and believe that if you haven't found the help you need, you will if you continue to search and talk about your problem everywhere you go. Someone will give you a recommendation that just might be the answer. Pray too! I found my miracle by talking about my mouth in the lobby of my general pc's office!

20

dear Sunshine -

thanks for the reply. so much great info.

did you also have severe pain ? the "itchy" feeling is when i don't get pain - than it's the itchs feeling .. sometimes burn (like somebody scratched my inside of the mouth) . it's also on the end (far side) of the tongue. many kinds of pains and feelings.

i KNOW something is physically wrong. not something heroic or mysterious to the medical world . something simple - but that has to be found.

i also have degenerative (i think that's the word) changes in teeth. but the doesn't explain the pain (accrding to dcoros).

how long did you suffer ? did it started after a dental work ?


you are very right. i also though of an infection (small one) in the gums (i did a dental cleaning before it all started). or in the bone.


were the shawoes in your CT were explained ? is it normal ? it's starnge i have these "shadows" in the side of the pain.


about your theory of malparctice. maybe.

i know for a fact some doctor look at me see my misreable face - and don't want to get into that story. why would they.

THE PROBLEM IS - THEY DON'T REALLY INVEST TO TRY.

why were you become doctors if not help people in real need for that ?

i wait monthes for an appointemt.. to famous doctors names.. and than they see you for 5 minutes... and say "You have to clean better you teeth. otherwise - no problem.

etc.

also the dental Surgeons here - are a joke. sorry to say.

one can say - that i can look at it differently - they just don't know. when all the X RAYS are fine - their hands are tied.

as for the infection theory - i though about it myself. and even went to several specialist in infective disease (not for the teeth. maybe to hear thier opinions).

my though that even the slightest change in the nerve - pressure - of a small infection - can cause such trouble.

at my case - at first my face became a bit "Deformed" i've had a change in my face. like they were "tilted" (don't know to explain) so maybe some mechnical pressure involved. i just DON'T know. and tired of trying to fight this and figure this out alone.

i'm glad you found this doctor that was willing to do so and "open" you. wish i was in the US. doctors here are very limited in thier willing to really do something.

the "funny" thing is , that in their web sites they "brag" about treating people with deformed face, doing complicated surgeons... but opening the gums to find out what - they won't do that.

maybe they are right - and it can cause great risk, as one doctor told me. maybe.

another problem i have - is the the pain is sometime up and sometimes down in the mouth. if they "open" the gums - i really don't know which side i "want" them to open first. i know it's all sounds imaginary. but at least in this site people really understands.

so did he opened your gums and just like that saw the cause for the problem ? was the opening from the front side ? or back of teeth ? would like to hear more about that.

ICAT - NEVER heard of that. just checked it out. it looks like a CT .


i've done 4 (!) CT''S and 2 full body "bone scans" in one year !!!! (that's except for the regular XRAYS they do me all the time) . it's enormous amount of radation. i can't do another CT'S i guess :( (by the way - the first "bone scan" showed a problematic "hot spot" in my jaw- which wasn't explain till now.

never heard of bioesthetic dentist. i'll check it out. i'm sure there are none in Israel .

you are so right - i DO know that i'm right in presisting (even when i went to 3-4-5 doctors A WEEK for about 1.5 years (i am not exaerating!) , i feel something's wrong in the mouth. god . and my bite isn't that well (it was perfect 2 years ago. and now it's not. i don't know what is the reason and what is the cause).

also i mentioned my face had changed since that. i had long gentle face before. and not it's like the bones grew bigger - idon't know if it's a muscle activety in the area.. or i'm putting stress on the muscles.. but i've lost my look. it's not THAT terrible.. but yes. it really effects me when i look in the mirror. a person have to like himself (inside and outside) . it really upsets me that will all the story - even after it ended - what it had done to the bones of my face won't be able to fix.

thanks for the reply.. and letting me "take stuff" out of my heart.

maybe i'll write you a personal msg.