Diagnosis of Atypical Odontalgia/Facial Pain-I still have difficulty accepting it

Hi everyone...

Here's my story, and I have some questions in the end, so please bear with me :-))

It started more than 6 months ago. I began to have a vague (at first) pain in the right upper corner of my mouth around the molar and pre-molar teeth which are just below the sinus cavity... I couldn't tell exactly which tooth was hurting me - it was more like the pain would zip back and forth and settle on a different tooth in that row. I also noticed that hot coffee or cold drinks would trigger it. Of course - I assumed it was the tooth but which one?

I saw a number of dentists for second, third and fourth opinion...They all did x-rays and told me that other than mild caries on my molars in the back - there seems to be NOTHING wrong, nothing that could cause that kind of pain. One of the dentists insisted that I needed a root canal on my pre-molar tooth in right mandibular region, - that perhaps the nerve is dying and the rest is really a case of referred pain. I agreed and away we went. But immediately after - the pain returned. I cam back and he opened the temporary filling in case it was infected to release pressure....didn't help, needless to say. In fact, - the pain got worse and now began to settle on 2 front teeth which were crowned. My regular dentist assumed it was the front 2nd incisor to the right (despite negative x-ray) because that tooth actually had a nerve unlike its root canaled neighbour. (indeed that tooth would sometimes hurt me mildly when I was flossing). He root canaled it immediately and said the nerve was necrotic. The pain ceased the same evening...

Yet already on the next day it returned with vengeance! I began to experience severe pressure in my right mandible which grew worse and worse towards the evening. By evening it felt like someone connected a car battery to my right cheek, - not shock-like jolts but steady ROLLING WAVE OF ELECTRICITY. When it reached it's apogee - my teeth would begin to hurt. They hurt exactly like teeth, even ones with no nerves in them (!) 4 dentists and over 20 negative x-rays later I knew that dentists will be of no help and began looking for a diagnosis elsewhere......

The pain would steadily grow every day towards the evening and NOTHING, not toradol,not ibuprofen nor even morphine (and I am on morphine for pre-existing severe chronic pain and disabling spasms in my back). I felt absolutely desperate. The only thing that matched ALL my symptoms was Atypical Odontalgia or Atypical Orofacial Pain (sometimes cross - referenced as TN type 2). Never before when looking for what ailed me in the past did I find such an exact match. I am a psychologist, so I know how to counter cognitive biases when doing online research but despite all the objectivity I tried to exercise, I became convinced this is what I have... I just needed to eliminate other "contestants" such as Sinusitis and TMD (a.k.a. TMJ) by going to my GP and ordering necessary tests and referrals.

But the pain became so mind bogglingly intense!! It began to involve right upper jaw, cheek and ear. Sometimes severe toothache would immediately cease and jump behind my ear where it would hurt at 2-3 on a likert scale of 1-10 and not 9 or 10 anymore. The pressure began to involve the bridge of my nose, behind my eye it felt like my face will pop off and my teeth felt like they are being pushed out....I thought I may be having some kind of a mass pushing on my nerves and went to ER...Negative CT scan, terrible treatment, condescending rude attitude... They charged me $45 bucks (apparently Canadian Free Healthcare doesn't include ambulance. Get there on your own if you happen to be broke LOL) and I was sent home..

My GP at first thought Sinusitis despite negative CT scan and put me on Amoxycillin. Needless to say it didn't help much. The pain would be as intense in evenings so I had to do all my chores in the first part of the day before the pain would have me pace back and forth until 3-4 am. I was growing desperate. It's been 3 months and things were progressively worse...I began seriously considering suicide.

It wasn't something impulsive - I approached the issue quite socratically. I realized that the pain was destroying who I was as a person. That I was becoming very irritable, miserable, intolerant even rude...I realized that the pain will eventually waste me away until I am no longer the person I was or not a person at all!. I didn't want to wait for the pain to degrade my personality completely, I realized that sooner or later I would have to take my own life because it no longer was worth living and I wanted to be remembered the way I was BEFORE the pain destroyed me - a naive but understandable human wish. I am a scientist - I don't believe in all the "pain is a spiritual teacher" New Age wish wash, - I know for a fact that it destroys one's humanity if very strong and chronic

I explained the situation in details to a couple of people I consider my best friends that if something were to happen to me - to please understand that this is not cowardice or in any way directed against them. Cowardice is waiting for a miracle which will never occur, like a helpless animal that doesn't have a choice. Humans should always have a CHOICE and should not be deprived of a choice to take their own life if facing the prospect of severe lifelong suffering of such grim nature...In the West we still value Sanctity of Life over Quality of Life and Moral Autonomy principles weighed together. I was mentally and emotionally preparing to die...

Luckily my GP recognized what it was. She had little choice after she familiarized herself with a stack of peer reviewed material on the subject of TN and AOP that I brought her..What are doctors for when you need to self-diagnose first to get treatment!?! But she was good, she did trigger point tests for TMD (TMJ) and I had no typical trigger points...She immediately prescribed Lyrica and wrote a referral to a neurologist and one for MRI. It took awhile for Lyrica to have any effect on the pain. At first - it just helped me fall asleep. The neurologist also tested for TMJ and concluded that it must indeed be AOP and that my nerves may have been aggravated by dental procedures (which I had plenty before that). However, I also had similar albeit much milder pain on the left side of my jaw and face and he said that for AOP to be idiopathic - it's very rare to have it on both sides, He wanted MRI to see if anything impacted on trigeminal nerves.

By ten Lyrica began working and my pain became a bit milder. The MRI took a month and showed nothing out of ordinary except enlarged cervical lymph nodes on the left. These nodes would often hurt me when I would come inside form the cold. Just in case infection was really the underlying reason for AOP, my GP put me on prolonged antibiotic treatment. I am near the end of it and it isn't helping...I am beginning to think that the swollen lymph nodes as well as other symptoms I developed lately - nausea, excessive tiredness, clumsiness and metal fog as well as intermittent night sweats can be indicative of early cancer like Hodgkins Lymphoma. I feel incredibly sick and it impacts my work. I lost around 40 or so pounds in less than a year without trying and at first I attributed it to quitting amitriptyline but when weight loss continued on I became concerned...

It sucks to be me I guess...Anyway my point is - I am not convinced at all that my AOP is idiopathic, I know that it is common for individuals with AOP and TN to seek organic causes and alternative diagnoses but nonetheless I firmly believe that that my AOP is far from idiopathic. I shouldn't be feeling nauseous, lethargic, cognitively impaired...I shouldn't have to punch another hole in my belt every month because my pants are falling down, - without even trying to lose weight. And those sweats that can occur out of the blue during the night/early morning hours, frequent headaches which often made me throw up...I became absolutely intolerant of the cold which exacerbated my symptoms

Anyway, I wonder if any of you folks are completely satisfied with your diagnosis or, if you believe there may be another underlying organic cause for this condition? Do you have other symptoms which are both alarming and inconsistent with idiopathic TN, Atypical TN or AOP? Or, were any of you diagnosed with a co-morbid condition (which at least in theory or in principle could trigger TN/AOP by impacting on the nerves, etc. ?

Grateful for any help.

Hello fellow Canadian,

I live an hour east of Toronto.

Your symptoms are very familiar. And your story is similar to many on here. My pain started in a left side molar and I also had an unnecessary root canal trying to rid myself of the pain. I was wishing it was dental. I had dealt with TN years earlier and did not want to go down that road again.

After my root canal my pain also started to travel. It used to stay in my teeth on the left side but suddenly shot into my cheek, jaw and ear. That was a year ago. I was given MRI and everything was normal. I started Amitriptyline and it has controlled my pain greatly.

Now I am having symptoms on the opposite side of my face. Bilateral symptoms are not as rare as doctors believe. One of the administrators on this site told me that one fifth of all members experience bilateral pain. My new symptoms are in my tongue, the roof of my mouth, teeth and under my lip. I am desperately searching for answers and am in panic mode. I am awaiting some testing but my mind has been running wild. I have seen four doctors this week and they all say it is neuralgia. Maybe after the MRI I will feel better?? At least in knowing the only demon I am faceing is TN. I fear cancer and MS at this moment.

I think it is fairly common to be frightened. This disease is invisible and has no test to diagnose it. Only through weeding out other causes is one left with the diagnosis of TN. But I would not say that TN is idiopathic. There is usually a cause, even if unseen on an MRI. It is usually due to a blood vessel being wrapped around the nerve. I am no specialist but maybe one of the moderators will chime in.

You should contact RED on this site. He is one of the moderators and has years of experience with Trigeminal Neuralgia patients.

I think some of your new symptoms could possibly be coming from your medication?? I am actually just about to start taking Lyrica. I have been on Amitriptyline for a year and that medication has certainly been a lot to handle.

Thank you for prompt reply, and your advice Justjane.

Unfortunately amitriptyline is not an option for me. It caused excessive sweating and Tardive Dyskinesia symptoms (my jaw would move uncontrollably) Also I believe I developed breath holding spells when I involuntarily hold my breath while typing or reading because of this medication. Unlike TD the latter would not go away....

As you probably already know, idiopathic is just one of the words doctors use to describe a condition which has NO KNOWN causes. In other words strictly from perspective of scholarly logic - it's really an example of Nominal Fallacy - we don't know what's wrong with you so let's call it something LOL

I wouldn't say Lyrica has caused any of the symptoms. The only new thing I noticed from Lyrica was mild constipation and tendency to fall asleep whenever in a moving vehicle. Thankfully I am not driving - it would have been disastrous miscalculation on my part to drive knowing I can pass out...

Whether or not you will feel better after MRI? Hmm that depends...I actually felt worse..If they found ANYTHING at all - even a cancer - that would mean they identified the cause and can possibly treat it alleviating at least some of my symptoms. But "no known cause" means you will not be taken very seriously by most medical professionals. At least it was true in my case, there were only 2 doctors which took me seriously...

I am waiting for an ENT specialist to do an endoscopy of sinuses just to be sure there isn't an infection...

Oh and BTW in addition to general MRI- they did a detailed sweep of my right mandibular area and base of skull to see if a vessel is indeed impacting the nerve - nada, - not the case, alas...."unremarkable" as it's put....

Amitriptyline is very hard to quit in my experience....much harder than morphine in many respects. And I was on a comparatively mild dose of 50 mg for neuropathy involving lower back...


justjane37 said:

Hello fellow Canadian,

I live an hour east of Toronto.

Your symptoms are very familiar. And your story is similar to many on here. My pain started in a left side molar and I also had an unnecessary root canal trying to rid myself of the pain. I was wishing it was dental. I had dealt with TN years earlier and did not want to go down that road again.

After my root canal my pain also started to travel. It used to stay in my teeth on the left side but suddenly shot into my cheek, jaw and ear. That was a year ago. I was given MRI and everything was normal. I started Amitriptyline and it has controlled my pain greatly.

Now I am having symptoms on the opposite side of my face. Bilateral symptoms are not as rare as doctors believe. One of the administrators on this site told me that one fifth of all members experience bilateral pain. My new symptoms are in my tongue, the roof of my mouth, teeth and under my lip. I am desperately searching for answers and am in panic mode. I am awaiting some testing but my mind has been running wild. I have seen four doctors this week and they all say it is neuralgia. Maybe after the MRI I will feel better?? At least in knowing the only demon I am faceing is TN. I fear cancer and MS at this moment.

I think it is fairly common to be frightened. This disease is invisible and has no test to diagnose it. Only through weeding out other causes is one left with the diagnosis of TN. But I would not say that TN is idiopathic. There is usually a cause, even if unseen on an MRI. It is usually due to a blood vessel being wrapped around the nerve. I am no specialist but maybe one of the moderators will chime in.

You should contact RED on this site. He is one of the moderators and has years of experience with Trigeminal Neuralgia patients.

I think some of your new symptoms could possibly be coming from your medication?? I am actually just about to start taking Lyrica. I have been on Amitriptyline for a year and that medication has certainly been a lot to handle.

hello Moribund,

Your story could be mine..My face/teeth pain started after a wisdom tooth extraction.the pain started out as severe jaw pain, then gum burning, then horrible throbbing in the bottom left canine tooth. Then it would spread behind my left ear. My ear lobe would become hot to the touch and the bone behind my ear would swell. On occasion I'll get sharp shooting pain in various teeth..I went back to the oral surgeon many times hoping he'd find something wrong. He took xrays and said he could see nothing wrong. I spent all of my insursance money going to 4 other dentists for answers. I wanted them to find something that could be "fixed".. I had a dentist tell me he saw a piece of root left in my gum but the oral surgeon said he didn't see one..I was so upset and I started to panic about the pain and started having panic/anxiety attacks..One from the pain and two from not knowing what was causing it..I went to my family doctor after a fifth dentist said it could be an overoactive nerve..So my doctor referred me to a neurologist who ran tests and told me it WASN"T nerve related..He told me to go see another dentist...:((((( I was so frustrated, scared and upset I started crying..I asked him who was I to believe?? The dentists all said it wasn't the teeth and he said it wasnt the nerves.He finally prescribed me Amitriptyline...I was seriously considering suicide..I wanted my old self back..I understand how pain changes your personality..I've become anxious and stressed...Who wants to live like this? My amitriptyline works pretty good..But about one hour before my next dose the pain comes through a little..I still get the sharp pains..The only drawback from Amitriptyline is excessive tiredness..I take it at 5 pm and can barely get out of bed at 6 am to go to work..My mind also runs wild , thinking I have some disease or another serious condition..I believe it is my tooth..Maybe a crack in the root since I am a big tooth grinder at night...But no one can see a crack and a dentist told me it is hard to crack a tooth..I'm having a hard time accepting I will have this pain the rest of my life and will always have to take meds..I'm 53 years old...I too believe that people should be able to choose if they want to live a life of pain or not..Hopefully you will get the answers you are looking for ....

Hi Moribund, trying to organize everything I read above, it's a lot to respond to :) You sound like me, when I read this I totally identified with it:

"Whether or not you will feel better after MRI? Hmm that depends...I actually felt worse..If they found ANYTHING at all - even a cancer - that would mean they identified the cause and can possibly treat it alleviating at least some of my symptoms. But "no known cause" means you will not be taken very seriously by most medical professionals. At least it was true in my case, there were only 2 doctors which took me seriously.."

I just had more MRIs done last week and I know what you mean. You don't want them to find something, but you do. I'm literally minded, left brain oriented and being able to identify and understand things helps me deal with this world. TN?? I have no causation, no defense and I am scared. My neuro wants to send me to a surgeon and I just am not ready for that, I am uneasy about it. I have had multiple symptoms of MS over the years and I worry that if my TN is caused by MS what will having surgery gain me? What are the possible risks? :::Sigh:: So, I see her tomorrow and I am betting I will be told the MRIs were negative. You're not alone... I think a lot of us feel this way, helpless and confused and so desperately wanting an answer, any answer. Cancer? MS? They are known to people. At least when those things are mentioned people want to be helpful, they understand. At least then we would get compassion. An relatively unheard of disease like TN? People think you're imagining it, making it up, malingering :(

As far as your other symptoms, they may be related. There are viruses doctors feel can be involved in developing TN. Or, those symptoms may be related to something entirely different. Have you gotten the book "Striking Back" put out by the facial pain association? It's the facial pain bible. Have you tried taking Tegretol? This has worked for me. Lately though I have been having flares and the dosage is raised. I don't experience the side effects others do but I do notice some things, I just feel I have no choice. It's certainly frustrating. I took Lyrica for my back a few years back and nearly had an emotional breakdown, it had severe effects on me mentally. I cannot take it.

There is a reason this has been called the suicide disease, it truly gets that bad. People don't understand and we fee very alone and so not in control of our bodies. You must deal with those feelings, they are not healthy :( You just need to find the right doctors that can help you. I am not familiar with the Canadian system but if you are able to shop around do it. I am facing changing my Neuro as it's becoming obvious she is not very experienced with TN :(

Sorry if this post is all over the place, my head is killing me today and my face is threatening me :( Keep catching myself pressing on that spot just in front of my ear....

Welcome to the site! I have been here a week and was just happy that I would have people to talk to. Those people being so very knowledgeable is a HUGE plus.

Cherri

Stephanie,

How long have you been on the Amitriptyline? And at what dose?

I have been on it for about eight months so I can give you some insight.

stephanie said:

hello Moribund,

Your story could be mine..My face/teeth pain started after a wisdom tooth extraction.the pain started out as severe jaw pain, then gum burning, then horrible throbbing in the bottom left canine tooth. Then it would spread behind my left ear. My ear lobe would become hot to the touch and the bone behind my ear would swell. On occasion I'll get sharp shooting pain in various teeth..I went back to the oral surgeon many times hoping he'd find something wrong. He took xrays and said he could see nothing wrong. I spent all of my insursance money going to 4 other dentists for answers. I wanted them to find something that could be "fixed".. I had a dentist tell me he saw a piece of root left in my gum but the oral surgeon said he didn't see one..I was so upset and I started to panic about the pain and started having panic/anxiety attacks..One from the pain and two from not knowing what was causing it..I went to my family doctor after a fifth dentist said it could be an overoactive nerve..So my doctor referred me to a neurologist who ran tests and told me it WASN"T nerve related..He told me to go see another dentist...:((((( I was so frustrated, scared and upset I started crying..I asked him who was I to believe?? The dentists all said it wasn't the teeth and he said it wasnt the nerves.He finally prescribed me Amitriptyline...I was seriously considering suicide..I wanted my old self back..I understand how pain changes your personality..I've become anxious and stressed...Who wants to live like this? My amitriptyline works pretty good..But about one hour before my next dose the pain comes through a little..I still get the sharp pains..The only drawback from Amitriptyline is excessive tiredness..I take it at 5 pm and can barely get out of bed at 6 am to go to work..My mind also runs wild , thinking I have some disease or another serious condition..I believe it is my tooth..Maybe a crack in the root since I am a big tooth grinder at night...But no one can see a crack and a dentist told me it is hard to crack a tooth..I'm having a hard time accepting I will have this pain the rest of my life and will always have to take meds..I'm 53 years old...I too believe that people should be able to choose if they want to live a life of pain or not..Hopefully you will get the answers you are looking for ....

Read that book Striking Back mentioned above--

Go to the doctors tab above (our favorite doctors): FIND a TN Experienced Dr. - Neurologist

We are about 12 in 100,000 --- that's why nobody knows how we have what we have

The only research that is funded is on the Face Pain Association Website

There are also doctors found there too

From all my research -- LOTS --

- many humans have these compressions on our nerves - but something will happen at the dentist, or whiplash, and the biology is triggered

However my top dog neurosurgeon did not see my compressions in MRI - most are found on the operating table : )

He found two - it is 2 years later , I have no pain, no meds

Some have no compressions and are suffering from Shingles, Multiple Sclerosis etc.

Learn all you can, Read, Learn, Ask, Repeat

I had a brand new Master's Degree when this hit me, and as a therapist, I was thinking life was not worth living...... the meds took ALL my IQ out the door. I could not find a job, bad depression..... PTSD....

Even after surgery - from the best - it took almost two whole years

before I would feel normal again!!!

There are mannnny meds to try

http://www.livingwithtn.org/forum/topics/for-those-on-the-medicaion-merry-go-round-i-ve-compiled-a-list

and mannnny compounds to put in your mouth and on your face

http://www.livingwithtn.org/forum/topics/taking-a-poll-here-please-instant-help-for-pain-now-topical

This is for peace of mind for now:

http://www.butyoudontlooksick.com/wpress/articles/written-by-christine/the-spoon-theory/

I will put those links here:

Glad you found us!

Hello Justjane,

I started taking Amitriptyline last febuary and took it for about 8 months..My pain was gone, (tooth, jaw, ear) after taking it for the 8 months ..But just recently I had an upper molar extracted(exposed nerve from bad filling) and the next day my whole left side started to burn and my tooth started to throb again!! So I started taking it again two weeks ago..It helps...Are you still taking Amitriptyline or did you find a better med? Any info would be appreciated!

Stephanie,

So sorry for what you are going through! I am so sad that your pain came back...and after a dental procedure no doubt!

Yes, I am still on it. It has worked very well for the pain that started in my tooth. I just wanted to reassure you to give it time if you are new to it. You have been on it though, so you know the side effects and time it takes to work. Some people don't stick with it long enough.

I really hope it works for you again.

Jane


Thank you for encouraging words, Stephanie. And I am sorry to hear about your experience with dentists which does by the way resemble mine quite a lot.

Mind you - it's not all that hard to crack a tooth, it happened to me after all :) And I wasn't even grinding or clenching! ....What's even more cruel is that it's sometimes hard to see a crack in a tooth on a routine x-ray. My dentist told me a story how this woman patient of his had repeated negative x-rays yet a cone beam scan showed a crack running all the way to the root. She needed a root canal and crown and that fixed her pain which drove her mad for nearly 2 years (!)

A swelling is usually a telltale sign of dental or periodontal abscess though. Have you asked your dentist about cone beam scan? Sometimes it's the only good way of telling for sure... I would have done the same had my pain not traveled all over my face which would render specific narrow area scan moot. It also could be that you have two unrelated conditions - a cracked tooth with or without periapical abscess AND TN....and this is why amitriptyline helps maybe?

I am glad it does help you though...for me it was more trouble than it's worth :-(

hello Moribund,

Your story could be mine..My face/teeth pain started after a wisdom tooth extraction.the pain started out as severe jaw pain, then gum burning, then horrible throbbing in the bottom left canine tooth. Then it would spread behind my left ear. My ear lobe would become hot to the touch and the bone behind my ear would swell. On occasion I'll get sharp shooting pain in various teeth..I went back to the oral surgeon many times hoping he'd find something wrong. He took xrays and said he could see nothing wrong. I spent all of my insursance money going to 4 other dentists for answers. I wanted them to find something that could be "fixed".. I had a dentist tell me he saw a piece of root left in my gum but the oral surgeon said he didn't see one..I was so upset and I started to panic about the pain and started having panic/anxiety attacks..One from the pain and two from not knowing what was causing it..I went to my family doctor after a fifth dentist said it could be an overoactive nerve..So my doctor referred me to a neurologist who ran tests and told me it WASN"T nerve related..He told me to go see another dentist...:((((( I was so frustrated, scared and upset I started crying..I asked him who was I to believe?? The dentists all said it wasn't the teeth and he said it wasnt the nerves.He finally prescribed me Amitriptyline...I was seriously considering suicide..I wanted my old self back..I understand how pain changes your personality..I've become anxious and stressed...Who wants to live like this? My amitriptyline works pretty good..But about one hour before my next dose the pain comes through a little..I still get the sharp pains..The only drawback from Amitriptyline is excessive tiredness..I take it at 5 pm and can barely get out of bed at 6 am to go to work..My mind also runs wild , thinking I have some disease or another serious condition..I believe it is my tooth..Maybe a crack in the root since I am a big tooth grinder at night...But no one can see a crack and a dentist told me it is hard to crack a tooth..I'm having a hard time accepting I will have this pain the rest of my life and will always have to take meds..I'm 53 years old...I too believe that people should be able to choose if they want to live a life of pain or not..Hopefully you will get the answers you are looking for ....

Thank you Cherry. I will certainly read the book.

"You must deal with those feelings, they are not healthy :(" I am a psychologist who has done both grief therapy and counseled people on palliative care and I beg to differ :-) "These feelings" are quite healthy, considering the circumstances in fact they are normal part of being human as unfortunate as that is... My real friends too, understood me quite well. It's the relatives who usually cannot be told or learn to accept it. I am not in the least bit religious and from perspective of secular ethics see nothing wrong with individual choice in these matter when someone is facing a lifelong debilitating and painful illness which cannot be cured or well controlled.

I never actually attempted suicide because of this (albeit it I gave it very serious consideration), nor do I intend to in the near future. Whether or not this will be the path I choose to take in the long run will depend on my condition and the prospect of it being relieved. I am a rational personal and I will certainly firstly exhaust all medical options with the exception of quackery (like spiritual healers, etc.)

As far as everything else - yes I know you do know that I know too what this madness is like...LOL There is no easy answer - it's never just black or white... KC Dancer also put it quite well - your cognitive acuity and years of education can just fly right out the window...I try not to lose my objectivity when reading about this condition and possibly related conditions but I am the same person who put a teabag into a cup filled with coffee this afternoon and only realized it when I began to drink it because it tasted odd :-))

We are all extremely fallible thus sometimes needing each other's perspective. However in certain situations (as social psychologists tell us) we can be even more fallible as a group than we are as individuals and conversely - sometimes it takes a few watchful individuals to warn us that we are heading in the wrong direction. Sometimes if they are persistent enough and not get mob lynched or burnt at the stake in the process - they succeed :-( I leave you with this sour fruit of a wisdom today ;-) ...
Cherri said:

Hi Moribund, trying to organize everything I read above, it's a lot to respond to :) You sound like me, when I read this I totally identified with it:

"Whether or not you will feel better after MRI? Hmm that depends...I actually felt worse..If they found ANYTHING at all - even a cancer - that would mean they identified the cause and can possibly treat it alleviating at least some of my symptoms. But "no known cause" means you will not be taken very seriously by most medical professionals. At least it was true in my case, there were only 2 doctors which took me seriously.."

I just had more MRIs done last week and I know what you mean. You don't want them to find something, but you do. I'm literally minded, left brain oriented and being able to identify and understand things helps me deal with this world. TN?? I have no causation, no defense and I am scared. My neuro wants to send me to a surgeon and I just am not ready for that, I am uneasy about it. I have had multiple symptoms of MS over the years and I worry that if my TN is caused by MS what will having surgery gain me? What are the possible risks? :::Sigh:: So, I see her tomorrow and I am betting I will be told the MRIs were negative. You're not alone... I think a lot of us feel this way, helpless and confused and so desperately wanting an answer, any answer. Cancer? MS? They are known to people. At least when those things are mentioned people want to be helpful, they understand. At least then we would get compassion. An relatively unheard of disease like TN? People think you're imagining it, making it up, malingering :(

As far as your other symptoms, they may be related. There are viruses doctors feel can be involved in developing TN. Or, those symptoms may be related to something entirely different. Have you gotten the book "Striking Back" put out by the facial pain association? It's the facial pain bible. Have you tried taking Tegretol? This has worked for me. Lately though I have been having flares and the dosage is raised. I don't experience the side effects others do but I do notice some things, I just feel I have no choice. It's certainly frustrating. I took Lyrica for my back a few years back and nearly had an emotional breakdown, it had severe effects on me mentally. I cannot take it.

There is a reason this has been called the suicide disease, it truly gets that bad. People don't understand and we fee very alone and so not in control of our bodies. You must deal with those feelings, they are not healthy :( You just need to find the right doctors that can help you. I am not familiar with the Canadian system but if you are able to shop around do it. I am facing changing my Neuro as it's becoming obvious she is not very experienced with TN :(

Sorry if this post is all over the place, my head is killing me today and my face is threatening me :( Keep catching myself pressing on that spot just in front of my ear....

Welcome to the site! I have been here a week and was just happy that I would have people to talk to. Those people being so very knowledgeable is a HUGE plus.

Cherri

Moribund,

The oral surgeon did two of the cone beam scans..One other dentist did a cone beam scan also..The other dentists didn't have a cone beam scanner...No one saw anything "suspicious"...I was just hoping it would be something like a crack in my tooth..Then I could extract it and the pain would be gone:) But I realize it isn't the tooth since it doesn't hurt during the night and as you said Amitriptyline helps with the pain and sharp jolts..I'm in the process of getting upper and lower partials so all my remaining teeth have been fixed in the last couple months.. I have 6 bottom teeth left and none have fillings. I have 7 upper teeth and two have fillings..I do have some bone loss on the bottom which one dentist said could cause some degree of pain.. On a lighter note..my son and his fiance are both psychologists....


Oh, BTW virus theory is interesting - it would for example explain why this feels like an infection and doesn't respond to antibiotics. Unfortunately lymphoma can also feel like an infection and not (for obvious reasons) respond to antibiotics...so... But, as far as parsimony (and probability) is concerned I still tend to think it's more likely to be latter than former :-( Lymphoma is also very difficult to diagnose in early stages - this is why it's called a "silent killer" except at times isn't very silent. I read some blogs of people with lymphoma - and the symptoms of some individuals as well as their initial suspicion of TN, Sinus Infection and Toothache) and pressure behind face) - all a very good match unfortunately :-(
Cherri said:

Hi Moribund, trying to organize everything I read above, it's a lot to respond to :) You sound like me, when I read this I totally identified with it:

"Whether or not you will feel better after MRI? Hmm that depends...I actually felt worse..If they found ANYTHING at all - even a cancer - that would mean they identified the cause and can possibly treat it alleviating at least some of my symptoms. But "no known cause" means you will not be taken very seriously by most medical professionals. At least it was true in my case, there were only 2 doctors which took me seriously.."

I just had more MRIs done last week and I know what you mean. You don't want them to find something, but you do. I'm literally minded, left brain oriented and being able to identify and understand things helps me deal with this world. TN?? I have no causation, no defense and I am scared. My neuro wants to send me to a surgeon and I just am not ready for that, I am uneasy about it. I have had multiple symptoms of MS over the years and I worry that if my TN is caused by MS what will having surgery gain me? What are the possible risks? :::Sigh:: So, I see her tomorrow and I am betting I will be told the MRIs were negative. You're not alone... I think a lot of us feel this way, helpless and confused and so desperately wanting an answer, any answer. Cancer? MS? They are known to people. At least when those things are mentioned people want to be helpful, they understand. At least then we would get compassion. An relatively unheard of disease like TN? People think you're imagining it, making it up, malingering :(

As far as your other symptoms, they may be related. There are viruses doctors feel can be involved in developing TN. Or, those symptoms may be related to something entirely different. Have you gotten the book "Striking Back" put out by the facial pain association? It's the facial pain bible. Have you tried taking Tegretol? This has worked for me. Lately though I have been having flares and the dosage is raised. I don't experience the side effects others do but I do notice some things, I just feel I have no choice. It's certainly frustrating. I took Lyrica for my back a few years back and nearly had an emotional breakdown, it had severe effects on me mentally. I cannot take it.

There is a reason this has been called the suicide disease, it truly gets that bad. People don't understand and we fee very alone and so not in control of our bodies. You must deal with those feelings, they are not healthy :( You just need to find the right doctors that can help you. I am not familiar with the Canadian system but if you are able to shop around do it. I am facing changing my Neuro as it's becoming obvious she is not very experienced with TN :(

Sorry if this post is all over the place, my head is killing me today and my face is threatening me :( Keep catching myself pressing on that spot just in front of my ear....

Welcome to the site! I have been here a week and was just happy that I would have people to talk to. Those people being so very knowledgeable is a HUGE plus.

Cherri

I'm hoping to get my impressions done and my teeth cleaned and everything dental out of the way while taking my meds and wait awhile for my nerves to calm down and see if the pain goes away again..I can only hope..Do you have side effects from the amitriptyline?

justjane37 said:

Stephanie,

So sorry for what you are going through! I am so sad that your pain came back...and after a dental procedure no doubt!

Yes, I am still on it. It has worked very well for the pain that started in my tooth. I just wanted to reassure you to give it time if you are new to it. You have been on it though, so you know the side effects and time it takes to work. Some people don't stick with it long enough.

I really hope it works for you again.

Jane

Hi Stephanie,

Yeah, I have had side effects. It made me very tired at the beginning. I felt hung over in the morning without having had the fun the night before! Ha. That is better now. I take it around 7pm, am in bed by 10pm, sleep like a baby and am ready to go in the morning. I am sleeping about two extra hours a night which is probably good for me.

I had a very dry mouth in the beginning. I have gained some weight too but would trade that any day for the pain! I found myself thinking about food all the time and making elaborate meals. I am not doing that anymore.

How about you? Have you had those side effects? How is it starting it up again?

I have been on Amitriptyline twice. Now and about eight years ago. My TN did go into remission for about seven years. It is back with a vengeance now though!

I hope it works well for you again and I wish you pain free days to come!

The first time the Amitriptyline gave me a very dry mouth!! I carried water with me everywhere i went.I also used Biotene mouth wash. I was very fatigued the first time I took Amitriptyline.. I'd take it at 7 pm and sleep till at least 10 am the next day.Very hard to get going!! This time I'm taking the meds at 5 pm with my supper and I start getting tired at 9 pm then I go to bed between 9:30/10:30 pm..still tough to get up in the morning! But the pain is less...As for food I crave browmies, cookies, glazed donuts..LOL So I have to watch it..I have a physical job so that helps to keep my weight steady..It's good to hear that your pain went away also..which means it could go away again..7 years is a long time....Heres hoping we both get another remission..Take care..

justjane37 said:

Hi Stephanie,

Yeah, I have had side effects. It made me very tired at the beginning. I felt hung over in the morning without having had the fun the night before! Ha. That is better now. I take it around 7pm, am in bed by 10pm, sleep like a baby and am ready to go in the morning. I am sleeping about two extra hours a night which is probably good for me.

I had a very dry mouth in the beginning. I have gained some weight too but would trade that any day for the pain! I found myself thinking about food all the time and making elaborate meals. I am not doing that anymore.

How about you? Have you had those side effects? How is it starting it up again?

I have been on Amitriptyline twice. Now and about eight years ago. My TN did go into remission for about seven years. It is back with a vengeance now though!

I hope it works well for you again and I wish you pain free days to come!


Cherry I for one would like to know how that MRI went and if it was indeed negative, as I am sure are others, if of course you will be comfortable sharing that in the next few days...
Cherri said:

Hi Moribund, trying to organize everything I read above, it's a lot to respond to :) You sound like me, when I read this I totally identified with it:

"Whether or not you will feel better after MRI? Hmm that depends...I actually felt worse..If they found ANYTHING at all - even a cancer - that would mean they identified the cause and can possibly treat it alleviating at least some of my symptoms. But "no known cause" means you will not be taken very seriously by most medical professionals. At least it was true in my case, there were only 2 doctors which took me seriously.."

I just had more MRIs done last week and I know what you mean. You don't want them to find something, but you do. I'm literally minded, left brain oriented and being able to identify and understand things helps me deal with this world. TN?? I have no causation, no defense and I am scared. My neuro wants to send me to a surgeon and I just am not ready for that, I am uneasy about it. I have had multiple symptoms of MS over the years and I worry that if my TN is caused by MS what will having surgery gain me? What are the possible risks? :::Sigh:: So, I see her tomorrow and I am betting I will be told the MRIs were negative. You're not alone... I think a lot of us feel this way, helpless and confused and so desperately wanting an answer, any answer. Cancer? MS? They are known to people. At least when those things are mentioned people want to be helpful, they understand. At least then we would get compassion. An relatively unheard of disease like TN? People think you're imagining it, making it up, malingering :(

As far as your other symptoms, they may be related. There are viruses doctors feel can be involved in developing TN. Or, those symptoms may be related to something entirely different. Have you gotten the book "Striking Back" put out by the facial pain association? It's the facial pain bible. Have you tried taking Tegretol? This has worked for me. Lately though I have been having flares and the dosage is raised. I don't experience the side effects others do but I do notice some things, I just feel I have no choice. It's certainly frustrating. I took Lyrica for my back a few years back and nearly had an emotional breakdown, it had severe effects on me mentally. I cannot take it.

There is a reason this has been called the suicide disease, it truly gets that bad. People don't understand and we fee very alone and so not in control of our bodies. You must deal with those feelings, they are not healthy :( You just need to find the right doctors that can help you. I am not familiar with the Canadian system but if you are able to shop around do it. I am facing changing my Neuro as it's becoming obvious she is not very experienced with TN :(

Sorry if this post is all over the place, my head is killing me today and my face is threatening me :( Keep catching myself pressing on that spot just in front of my ear....

Welcome to the site! I have been here a week and was just happy that I would have people to talk to. Those people being so very knowledgeable is a HUGE plus.

Cherri

Hello Moribund,

I'm not a doctor, but just a thought about the other symptoms you described - swollen lymph nodes, nausea, weight loss, intermittent night sweats, etc. I was very sick 15 years ago with what turned out to be the Epstein Barr virus. I lost at least 25 lbs at the time. It left me with chronic fatigue for months afterwards. Even now I still have bouts of chronic fatigue if I get rundown. The symptoms you mentioned seemed similar.

Do you trust the doctors you've seen so far? It sounds like you're dealing with a lot of physical symptoms plus the TN. Have you been tested for autoimmune disorders, vitamin deficiencies, food allergies? Before I saw the neurologist who diagnosed my atypical TN, my regular doctor did blood tests for everything I've listed, also for Lyme disease. The results were all negative, but at least it ruled those things out.

I hope you find relief from all this soon ... wishing you pain-free, healthy days ahead.

Yes, remission would be a dream come true right now!

stephanie said:

The first time the Amitriptyline gave me a very dry mouth!! I carried water with me everywhere i went.I also used Biotene mouth wash. I was very fatigued the first time I took Amitriptyline.. I'd take it at 7 pm and sleep till at least 10 am the next day.Very hard to get going!! This time I'm taking the meds at 5 pm with my supper and I start getting tired at 9 pm then I go to bed between 9:30/10:30 pm..still tough to get up in the morning! But the pain is less...As for food I crave browmies, cookies, glazed donuts..LOL So I have to watch it..I have a physical job so that helps to keep my weight steady..It's good to hear that your pain went away also..which means it could go away again..7 years is a long time....Heres hoping we both get another remission..Take care..

justjane37 said:

Hi Stephanie,

Yeah, I have had side effects. It made me very tired at the beginning. I felt hung over in the morning without having had the fun the night before! Ha. That is better now. I take it around 7pm, am in bed by 10pm, sleep like a baby and am ready to go in the morning. I am sleeping about two extra hours a night which is probably good for me.

I had a very dry mouth in the beginning. I have gained some weight too but would trade that any day for the pain! I found myself thinking about food all the time and making elaborate meals. I am not doing that anymore.

How about you? Have you had those side effects? How is it starting it up again?

I have been on Amitriptyline twice. Now and about eight years ago. My TN did go into remission for about seven years. It is back with a vengeance now though!

I hope it works well for you again and I wish you pain free days to come!

Moribund, I did not mean you should not have the feelings you are experiencing, we have all been there. I did not express myself well. What I meant was it seemed like you were almost bargaining and leveraging suicide as an option in your situation. Sorry I was not clearer when I made that statement. Suicide should not be on the table as an option for any of us. I hope you are able to find the answers and treatments that will help you to feel better. Hang in there

Cherri