Is this or isn't it?

I want to write a short explanation of what's going on medically over the last couple weeks and years to help me figure out what might be an appropriate course of action from this point. Before I begin it's important to note that I am extremely healthy. No allergies or diseases. In fact I can count on one hand the number of times I have seen a doctor who wasn't an OBGYN in the last 14 years. I catch a cold or flu once every other year, have a history of migraines that I control with over the counter medication and by going straight to bed when I feel one coming on. I am overweight but my blood pressure and cholesterol levels are both normal.
About 3 years ago I had a crown put on a lower tooth with no root canal. About 2 weeks later I went back to the dentist for pain in my teeth thinking I needed a root canal on that tooth. I couldn't pinpoint which tooth or even whether the pain was on the top or bottom. After taking additional xrays (which did not indicate a root canal needed to be done on any tooth) and tapping on each tooth (with no pain response) the dentist said my bite after the root canal might be a little high and he shaved and ground down some teeth. The pain went away the next day. He explained that teeth move around in your mouth more than people realize. Since then maybe 3-4 times a year I have had one or two days of pain. Its always on the right side and in my back 3-4 molars and both jaws. The pain would last only a day or two at most. I would complain to my husband that my teeth were killing me and he would get mad I wasn't going to the dentist but the pain always went away within a day or two and I assumed my teeth had moved into a high position and then moved back when the pain went away.
Starting on about October 10th the pain returned. The pain was sharp and jolting in my teeth with a kind of constant ache in my jaw. Sometimes it was on my top jaw and sometimes it was on bottom. The pain didn't respond to any painkillers I had, including Vicodin from the birth of my last baby over a year ago. I had minimal relief using ibuprofen. Sleeping at night was difficult because the pain seemed to intensify when I laid down.
By Tuesday I decided I needed to go to the dentist. The pain was much more intense than before and I was certain I needed a root canal. After reviewing new xrays the dentist said the same thing he said 3 years ago. He suggested maybe I had a sinus infection even though I didn't really have symptoms. My pain by this point was almost unbearable. I was not sleeping at night and it felt like I was being zinged at the dentist office in multiple teeth on my right side all night long. The next day I found it nearly impossible to find a doctor as I was a new patient (due to how healthy I wad I didn't have a primary care physician and haven't seen one in at least 5 years). Finally I found one who could see me in a timely manner.
I am the taxi driver, I mean Mom, to 6 young kids at home plus a full time Realtor. I put 30k miles a year on my car. The pain seemed to intensify to unbearable points at four times; during the night or anytime I laid down, when the kids started yelling or the baby was crying or any loud shocking noises, when I ate, and when I was driving. I was having to pull over in tears or sobbing at night because the pain was worse than anything I had ever felt. The episodes would last from a few seconds to more than 10 minutes only to reside and then build up again. It felt like a mixture of a brain freeze and needing a root canal in 3 or 4 teeth all at the same time. Sometimes it was a sharp ache in my jaw. But I did have complete times with zero pain.
After an exam the doctor said he did see some inflammation in my nasal cavity that could indicate a sinus infection but that was on the left side (not the right side where I was feeling pain) He diagnosed my with Trigeminal Neuralgia and prescribed neurontin, flonase, and amoxicillian. He ordered some basic blood work and a nasal cavity xray.
After going home and reading up on Trigeminal Neuralgia I decided to take the Neurontin despite my feeling that this might not be the correct diagnosis and my sinus infection could be causing the pain. I began taking the neurontin and noticed an immediate change. I was on 300mg and could take them 3 times a day. The pain was more bearable like a dull ache with a sharp increase in pain few times a day (mostly when I got in the car to drive). There were periods of hours when I had no pain whatsoever. I began to try to avoid activities that would exacerbate it and realized there were multiple days I had not eaten anything all day until late afternoon or had avoided brushing my teeth all day. I quit wearing makeup completely because when I put my face makeup or blush on I experienced 20 mintues of waves of pain right after.
On Tuesday the 22nd I went to see an oral surgeon for a second opinion. He did an exam to rule our TMJ and took another xray of my full head with an icat machine. He found I did not have TMJ and could see no boney tumors or other reasons I should be feeling the pain. He also felt I had never had a sinus infection as he saw no thickening of the membranes and no evidence of any congestion in either sinus cavity. At his suggestion I have an appt for this Monday to get fitted for a night guard in case clenching or grinding was causing the pain. He also suggested an MRI at some point because his machine could not see soft tissue pollups or blood vessels if this was Trigeminal Neuralgia.
My prayers were answered yesterday, Oct 25th, when the pain went away. As suddenly as it had appeared it was just gone. I still have a slight ache in my jaw (similar to the feeling you get after working out too much) but haven't taken the neurontin since yesterday morning and have only had one episode of pain since yesterday.
With 6 small children relying on me to be a healthy and functioning mom I just want to make sure all my bases are covered and I am aggressive on getting answers. I am thinking since I don't have pain now that it will be hard to get a referral for a Neurologist. My dad who was recently diagnosed with Cancer desperately wants me to get an MRI. After reading these stories about how long it took anyone with this to get answers I feel a little like I cheated if in fact this is what I have to have gotten an answer so quickly. These are my questions....
1. Do you feel that I actually have this or do you think it could still be something else? I had some heat sensitivity in my teeth the last two days of pain and this is more indicative of needing a root canal from what I can gather. That being said after reading these horror stories I am terrified to get one done. I am still hoping against all hope this is NOT what I have.
2. Would you push to have the MRI done? I don't have good insurance and will be paying out of pocket for it. Would you wait until the pain comes back? If it is a blood vessel pushing on the nerve and I don't have pain now, I will assume that the blood vessel won't be pushing on it.
3. Would you have the work done? My dentist did mention I have cross bite and thought that could be putting undue pressure on my nerve. He can crown all four of my upper teeth to get me out of cross-bite, Again I am so nervous to have any work done that I am not sure this is the best option.
4. If my primary care doctor won't refer me to a Neurologist is there a way to get in to see one without a referral? Again cost is a factor as I only have catastrophic insurance and will be paying out of pocket. I used my drug benefit for the first time to get the Neurontin since I got the insurance two years ago.
Any advice is appreciated.
Amber

Wow that was a long one Amber haha alright so heres my opinion Yes I would def say you do have trigeminal neuralgia It is a hard diagnosis to want to accept It took me 6 months and 2 root canals 5 teeth pulled to realize it wasn't my teeth. So no don't get the work done on your teeth you will only cause more problems! Your dentist sounds like a smart person I wasn't so lucky with mine. A lot of your story seems similar to mine I was also told it was a sinus infection but obviously it wasn't. Heres the thing with mri yes its going to cost quite a bit of money without insur. But think of it this way even if they do find blood vessel on the nerve are you willing to do brain surgery over this which costs like 40,000 dollars with no guarantee? I had one of the best mri's and they neurosurgeon found blood vessels pressing on both sides. I thought I would be happy with this finding at least to know I wasn't because I am not willing to risk anymore damage through surgery and to answer ur last question I personally had to get a referral to see a neurologist. I hope you find relief soon my friend.

Amber, let me 1st say, I am no Dr. I am just someone dealing with tn1 and tn2 for over 20yrs.Just wanted to say when I read this discussion and that you have 6 young children, you drive a lot, you had a root canal done, the pain you talk about, your ins. You remind me so much of myself.I am sooo sorry! So glad you don't have pain right now.I sure hope it doesn't come back. I am just speaking from what I know from my experience. I WOULD NOT STOP THE NEURONTIN! It usually takes some time to build up in your system. It did not help me, but everryone is so different, tn affects everyone so different what works for one may not work for another I don't care if its a med, surgery, heat bag etc. It also can come and go! I don't want to scare you it sounds like your already scared enough and I do understand! You have come to a great place for support, comfort, info. and so many folks that truly understand! You also mentioned taking vicodin it sounded like it might of been a yr.old, which not saying it would help but once again those types of meds. do help many they help me it at least takes the edge off of severe pain. I don't really care for vicodin, it helps some but gives me a bad headache norco works just about the same but doesn't give me the headache.I do use a heated BIG rice bag and I will wrap it all the way around my face and head it doesn't really stop the pain it just changes it and that sometimes is better then nothing.Mine has been more constant then not since last Jan.I had so much trouble with my teeth back over 20yrs. ago I had to have them all cut out and had a terrible infection prior to having them removed. I have always been scared to death of dentist so I would not be the one to say anything about what you should do about that. I am sorry! Others will have lots to offer! Wishing you continued painfree YEARS!! Maybe Neurontin is your drug that works for you just my opinion! Wishing you the best, dawn

Thanks for the responses (and for reading my book :wink: ). I was wondering myself if people stay on the drugs when they are in remission? I know you mention to keep taking the drugs but I read somewhere they lose their efficacy over time somewhere. I am very young (37) to be using up the Usefullness of the drug now. Do most neurologists suggest staying on it? The doctor who prescribed it to me was more like “take it when you need it”. I guess two things concern me that I read…tumor and ms. I am not sure if mri would show these things since I am in such the beginning stages maybe I should just wait on the mri.

Once again just my opinion, but being you are in the beginning maybe the mri would be helpful and rule out those other things. My last mei was in 2006 when Dr. Casey found a blood vessel wrapped around a nerve. I decided to go ahead with the mvd when he got in their he found another place the same way so he did the teflon padding. It did not help at all, but that is just me. I go back to Dr. Casey here in Mi. Nov.8th I have no idea what he will say now. I just can't take this pain much longer without some help! I really think I need opiods again Diludid helps me greatly! I can't find a pain Dr. or any Dr. at this point that will prescribe any pain meds. My neurologist says he can't my gp also says she can't. I am waiting on prior authorization for the lidocaine patches hoping they help some of this terrible burning, boring throbbing, etc. pain! I'm sorry! I need to stop! Hoping you find relife soon and answers. Soft hugs to you. Dawn

If you are trying to keep costs down I am curious about the mouth guard. I know when they were trying to push that on me the estimates were a good $1,500 for upper & lower. I had a couple of dentists try to sell me the guards but never bought them and am glad I saved my money.

I agree on not stopping the neurontin, especially if it is helping. My neuro has me very gradually increase when needed, by 100mg extra per day for 1 week. If that is enough I stop there. Currently, I am on 700mg daily but have been taking gabapentin for appx. 3 yrs. Like you, stress greatly increases my pain to the point of misery.

If your pattern is to have long remissions , I would NOT take it during remission… You will know when to get right back on it… It is progressive .

and grab he book…STRIKING BACK by…Dr. Ken Casey



Between that book and this site, I found from my GP AND HERE, THAT



Lidocaine mouthwash

Lidocaine cream… 5% best

Lidocaine patches



Make life bearable… Patches last 12 hrs… Cream is 4 x per day if needed



These saved my tortured soul!
and was allowed to have meds on lower doses!!




MRI for almost all of us , is to rule out brain tumor, or MS

AND most MRI will not see it





I believe you probably have this disease.

I’ve been here 3 years, daily.

I’m in a big remission now because best neurosurgeon in the country.

I come to help others.



I would not pay for mouth guard. Save your money. And as far as teeth, the thousands here of members , could fill a LARGE ship, with all our teeth yanked out for nothing.



Lastly for now, you gave a great story… Now look at visuals if you have not…



Google images:

Trigeminal neuralgia. And then,

Atypical face pain.



See if you seem to have both or just one type.



We are here when you need us again!

Well as you can see from my posts I definately dont have a dentist trying to make money on unecesasry work and for that I am truly grateful. The mouth guard is only $350 (he said they were $700 plus with other dentists) AND on the off chance that is the problem I am going to go for it. Did anyone get pain from the tapping on teeth? Heat sensitivity? I guess I am trying to figure out how to distinguish between needing a root canal and TN plus to be honest I am still in denial a little. Looking for any other answer (hoping)… I do have terrible teeth with lots of crowns and decay but no root canals. But the reality that I might actually need one is not far fetched. Who is the best specialist for this on the west coast? I am in the northern California area.

Did you look at google mages? It might jump you into leave denial. AND if you have to do root, then you can show endodontist where trigeminal nerves are.!



Read on here …put root canal in search box here





.sometimes root canal can start TN or make TN worse… Here we’re my questions



http://www.livingwithtn.org/forum/topics/cleo-anyone-root-canals-await



Cleo here is theeeee ROOT CANAL expert! , on these boards!

Amber, I write as a non-physician who has corresponded with over 4,000 chronic face pain patients and family members during the past 18 years. I moderate for these forums.

1. While it is not impossible that you have some dental issue, the weight of the symptoms you've described wouldn't lead most neurologists in that direction. Unless you have detectable wear patterns on your teeth, I'd also intuitively suspect that grinding isn't your problem. If I was advising a relative or close family friend, I'd say it's wisest to have a thorough evaluation by a neurologist before any kind of dental work is done.

2. Your assumption about detectable vascular compressions unfortunately doesn't hold true. Many patients have them and still go into and out of remission in no predictable way. Likewise, at least 10% of people who go through an MVD surgery will learn after the procedure that they had compressions that weren't seen in even the highest resolution MRI prints. MRI can confirm that you have them, but your best indicator for TN of either type isn't MRI. TN will be confirmed if you display a positive response to a short course of Tegretol, Trileptal, or Neurontin, tapered up over a period of days to a couple of weeks. You've already had that response with Neurontin, and at a daily dose that is even lower than the threshold often discussed by specialists in this field: about 1200 mg/day.

3. If your GP won't refer you to a neurologist, ask for his or her reasoning in writing, and then inform the doc that you intend to file a complaint with the local branch of his Medical Association (in Canada or the UK, with the National Health System or its equivalent).

I hope this gives you some resolution. Feel free to come back and talk.

Go in Peace and Power

R.A. "Red" Lawhern, Ph.D.

Resident Research Analyst, LwTN

Your story is similar to mine too. I had terrible pain on the left bottom molars for months. It would switch to the top sometimes and in different teeth. I had a root canal after describing the pain to my dentist. I wish I knew then what I know now. The x-ray did NOT show a dark spot and there wasn't any sign of an abscess. I don't believe the root canal caused TN because the pain was there first. That particular tooth still hurts if I push on it even though it is supposed to be "dead". But so many people have unnecessary dental work and extractions only to later discover it is TN. From what I have read don't even consider having a root canal unless you have evidence of an abscess. And read more about root canals because there is a lot of controversy over them. I wish I never had one done.

I did have a very long remission with my TN. My first attack was eight years ago. I was put on Amitriptyline. The pain went away and I stayed on that med for two years. When I went off of it the pain was gone and didn't come back until this year. Even having had TN before I still looked for dental answers far longer than I should have. I guess I was wishing it would be easily fixed.

I think an MRI is very important to rule out other causes, such as MS or cancer. It can also show a blood vessel but it may not.

As for the dentist. I was "diagnosed" with having TMJ problems during my first TN flair up before being diagnosed with TN. Like Red said the dentist will see grooves of wear on your teeth if you have grinding issues. I think TMJ is a blanket diagnosis that dentists use when they do not know what the problem is (that is just my opinion though).

And you should definitely see a neurologist and don't wait until your TN is worse. You need help now

Hi amber-- Sure sounds familiar..I have soft enamel on my teeth and have always had lots of fillings, a few root canals, etc. So when the pain started I SWORE I needed a root canal. For months I would get these short throbbing aching boring pains in the same back molar. Only a few times a week or even less. The dentist said there was nothing wrong with the tooth. I am a night tooth grinder so I blamed it on that and started wearing my mouth gaurd again but the pains kept coming... Thinking back it makes sense that it wasn't an absess because the pain generally does not come and go if it a tooth is that messed up. And yes-- tapping on a tooth causes really bad pain if you need a root canal but not generally with tn. One night I had the normal molar pain-- but then it went ballistic and hurt all along my lower jawline and up behind my eye. I was seeing stars it hurt so bad... and it continued -- for a week off and on I would get attacks-- if i chewed, rode in the car--even talked sometimes it would set it off... at this point I knew something else was up! I went online-- self-diagnosed and told the dr. what i thought I had-- he put me on tegretol-- and the pain just disappeared-- that was four months ago...I am still on a low dose not sure when i will wean off completely...hopefully i will go a long time before it gets nasty again... hope you are painfree for a long long time too!!

Thanks for all the answers and support. I will let you all know what the dentist says. He is a good family friend and j9t overzealous. It will be interwsting to see his take on TN for me as well. I am going to have him take another xray to compare it woth 2 weeks ago. If I do have TN I am almost certain its type one and not atypical. My pain goes away completely in between flare ups of severe pain throughout the day. Sigh…this would be so much easier if there were just a blood test for TN…just saying :slight_smile: I dont want to be in denial but I dont want to overlook something thats an actual fix eaither. I will push my md for a referral to neurologist.

Sounds most familiar, I had 5 teeth pulled even tho there was no sign of problems, when root canals didn't work I just had them pulled desperate to stop pain and obviously having a dentist who did not know of TN, I went 3 years, like you it would come and go, when it went I though whew, it is gone, but it always returned worse than before. I finally found a facial pain specialist who immediately diagnosed TN and put me on Gabapentin. Had an MRI, didn't show anything. I have had to increase dosage over the years and still have some breakthroughs and bad times, but I do my best to keep on. Topicals help as well. None of us want TN, understatement of the year, and denial is an easy thing to do, but knowledge is the best, with TN we have to be our own best advocates and find Dr's who know of and understand it. If it is the case you truly were lucky to have found a diagnosis so quickly. it does go in and out of remission for most. I would discuss going on and off RX with your Dr., mine told me to increase or decrease dosage but not to just go off it, but all are different. As well don't overwhelm yourself, it is important to be empowered with knowledge, but when first diagnosed I became obssessed with reading about it, not healthy and scared myself silly. It is terrible, no doubt, we have to know about it, but some at a time! This is a wonderful group, to learn and for support. I truly hope for you it is not TN, but it sure sounds familiar to me. The past few weeks I have had a really bad break through pain time, but I have continued to live, there are days I give in to some extent, but just know it is possible to carry on with this. I don't have human kids, but I am the soul caretaker of my disabled husband and my beloved pets. If it is TN try to educate your family/friends the best you can on it, since most have not heard of this it can be difficult for them to understand. There are some good videos out there as well as the wealth of info here. Posting always helps, please keep us updated and know we are here and care.

Betsy

Well I went to see the dentist yesterday and after doing some tap tests and hearing I had become sensitive to heat (As well as sensitive to cold when he tested me in the chair) he suggested that I do the root canal on tooth he had previously crowned. He actually knew what TN was and said TN is not sensitive to heat which was reassuring to me. I scheduled it for today before I can chicken out. I am so torn because I do still have concerns that I might have TN due to the sensitivity on my face when putting on makeup and when riding in cars (I have not been able to find documentation of root canal pain when doing these things) However, I do feel that if I have TN it is in remission as I still have the pain in my teeth but it's specific to one area now and not acting up when driving or when I put on face makeup etc. I am terrified to do the root canal and terrified not to. I think I am going to need a sedative when I sit down in that chair. Man I hope I am doing the right thing.

Just be careful with this. I had a history of TN ( I hadn't had a flair up in eight years) and when I was experiencing very specific pain around a bottom molar my dentist told me I needed a root canal. I just wanted the pain to end so I agreed hoping it would work. Looking back there wasn't evidence of an abscess though--no bump on the gum, no swelling and no dark spot on the x-ray to indicate an infection.

I had the root canal and the pain was immediately worse. Then my dentist told me it would take some time for the tooth to settle after the root canal. Well, it didn't and it got worse. The pain spread to my jaw, my cheek and my ear, as well as on that tooth and other teeth. The root canal didn't cause the TN because it was there first, but I do believe it exasperated it.

Two months later that tooth still hurts if any pressure is put on it and every attack I have starts with pain in that tooth. That tooth is supposed to be dead.

The fact that you have pain and sensitivity in other areas of your face really sounds like TN. And for me the fact that it is all a guessing game is really difficult to deal with. Good luck today and I really hope that it works for you! I hear so many stories on here of TN problems being wrapped up with dental work.

Keep us updated!

I have news for your dentist, Amber: TN pain can be triggered by a lot of things, and heat against the tooth can be one of them for some patients. If you do not have a positive indication of abscess in the dental X-rays, then I would first ask the dentist whether there is an X-ray imaging procedure at higher resolution to demonstrate that there is actually an abscess rather than a sensitized nerve ending...

Regards, Red

Just reading this makes me want to cancel! Theres no dark spot. He told me that at least that tooth will never be sensitive to cold again but that makes me worried he doesnt understand the beast. I know he truly is just trying to do the best thing for me but I am torn between hoping this will make it better and worried sick it will make it 100 times worse. Should I ask about sargenti paste? Not sure if thats an older problem or something we still need to worry about. I cant stop crying. The thought I could be exacerbating things is just overwhelming right now.

I wouldn't have it done Amber!!!!

My root canaled tooth still bothers me and is the source of so much pain. My dentist doesn't understand this at all because as far as he is concerned the tooth is dead.

Also, having read so much about root canals now I probably wouldn't have one done even if I didn't have TN! That is just my opinion. Complications seem very common and the chemicals they use do not sound good.

If you read other peoples' experiences with being diagnosed with TN so many start out in the dental chair. Unnecessary root canals and extractions.

Talk to Red about it. He knows his stuff. I would also say that if you think you need a root canal at least see a specialist first.

Any dentist who uses Sargenti paste in current practice is risking a malpractice suit. So I wouldn't expect your dentist to be using it. However, when there IS imaging evidence of abscess, then root canal is an accepted, necessary and for the most part safe procedure, as long as the dentist doesn't inject anesthetic directly into the lingual nerve (into the surrounding soft tissue, yes, but not into the nerve). Though there is some ambiguity and argument in medical literature about TN initiated by lingual nerve injections, there are enough case reports to exercise prudent caution.

Ask your dentist these questions before deciding how to proceed:

(a) How many abscesses do you commonly find when you do root canal, that have not been detected in dental imaging Xrays?

(b) Is your Xray equipment the best available for imaging of this type, or should I have imaging done by a specialty center?

(c) Are you aware of medical literature reports of lasting facial neuralgias which begin with a direct injection of anesthesia into the lingual nerve?

If you don't get thoughtful and detailed answers to these questions, then you might be better served by consulting another dentist for a second opinion -- AS WELL AS a neurologist.

Regards, Red