Hi everyone,
I have just had a chat with my occupations health nurse and she has been suggesting things that the doctors won't. I don't tend to believe in most complimentary techniques but as you are all probably similar, I am willing to try anything!
I tried acupuncture but had no luck with it, but she has now suggested craniosacral therapy. It is apparently a practitioner that applies light touches to your head, face and spine which stimulate cerebral fluids or something...anyone every heard of it or had success?
Luckily I work in a large hotel with our on spa which has naturopaths (who carry craniosacral therapy out) so might give it a go as I get a discount!
If no one has heard of it I will post my findings :-)
On a side note, anyone had success with acupuncture?
I have not tried either therapies but interested to know how well they will work for TN.
The TN Association has hosted sessions at their national conferences in the past, concerning acupuncture. The consensus among audience members in one that I attended was that a few people seem to get pain relief from acupuncture, but it's generally a relatively small minority. A few have experienced breakthrough pain after having needles placed on or very close to trigger points in the face.
"Craniosacral therapy" is one of many so-called treatments in "alternative medicine". The US National Institutes of Health indicates that this technique has shown some promise in migraine. Among 77 abstracts on the technique at the US National Library of Medicine, the following appear to be directly applicable:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23337558
and
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23131379
The bottom line is that there is no strong medical evidence for usefulness of this form of therapy, and further research seems needed.
Regards, Red
Thanks Red, with any luck I can be in small minority! Guess I won't know until I try it.
I've used acupuncture before for TN relief with success. I've also tried Craniosacral Therapy but only found it helpful with the headaches and not so much TN jolts or zaps. The relaxation it brought was good no matter what!
Jeanie
Heather, you can try the CT and see how it works for you. People have different reactions to therapies, perhaps even just the relaxation of being on the table could help. I hope it gives you some relief!
I am starting acupuncture and will info you on how it works. Had one treatment with no results but I am hopeful.
Acupuncture helps me. It did trigger pain the first couple of times but I stuck with it and it helped. I get migraines as well as ATN and it definitely helped with that. And even if it doesn't give you direct pain relief I still think that it has its place in treatment. Stress and anxiety contribute to my TN and pain causes a lot of tension. Acupuncture is amazing for both of these things. Be careful with the message. I tried the cranial sacral thing and it actually brought pain on. Maybe like the acupuncture, if I had have stuck with it the outcome would be different. What did help me though was physio and upper cervical therapy with an osteopath. Cranial therapy is different then cranial sacral. It is more based on the NUCCA treatment with alignment of the cervical spine.
I was told that cranial sacral therapy is dangerous as it actually shifts the bones of the skull and can thus cause more irritation and could make your symptoms much worse. Many therapist won’t be comfortable working on you. Be careful.
Various forms of spinal manipulation therapy are associated with rare incidents of a particular kind of stroke. But none of the chiropractic techniques actually moves the bones of the skull, which are fused in the weeks after birth. Anyone who claims to be able to physically move the bones in the skull is simply a quack. While some patients report that cervical chiropractic therapy has helped them, others report no improvement or worsening of their pain. There is no reliable trials data that I am aware of, to demonstrate that NUCCA techniques are superior to placebo effect.
If you are contemplating cranial sacral therapy or any other form of chiropractic, please consult first with a properly trained neurologist or neurosurgeon who is familiar with chiropractic practice.
Regards,
Whilst I agree with chiro can't move the bones of the skull after a certain age, and not that I've and seen any evidence that NUCCA is superior to placebo.
I haven't as far as I am aware, but I could stand corrected, that there are any statistics that spinal manipulation causes stroke, rather than speculation. One to five possible case histories, if presented ,mean nothing, I am told. I do know that microvascular decompression, according to statistics, probably at best suffer a mortality rate of between 0.2% and 0.5%, which is an extreme number compared to spinal manipulation. A huge number of spinal manipulation occur world wide, so we can probably find a figure if we look. Spinal manipulation, too few for stats, MVD 0.2 to 0.5% mortality, potentially one in 200, and spinal manip. is slated, doesn't make a lot of sense.
We need stats for spinal manipulation, stats to make an informed choice rather than scare tactics, which apparently fall short of MVD.
Stay away from Spinal manipulation, we don't know the risks, because there aren't enough adverse events reported, so no research, but we know MVD kill so many so it's obviously the better choice.
I agree with the point that aiculsamoth is trying to make. Even after all of the adverse affects possible, or lack of pain relief...we are still endorsing MVD surgery here. Why can we not be open to collecting information about TN being an extension of neck pain or problems? It is in these groups that I have learnt everything I know about facial pain. I think we need to be a bit more open minded here. MVD is not always successful and actually has a quite low success rate for ATN but we are still telling people to try that.
I would have to agree whole heartedly with you justjane37,
Why not at least be open to the idea of the neck causing TN, at least attempting to analyse the evidence. If it was found to be viable you would potentially have a comparatively very safe alternative to invasive treatments. After all, the medical prof, are using MVD, microvascular decompression in the large part as a diagnostic procedure, with all the risks involved, i.e. we didn't see it on MRI, but we are pretty sure we will find it once we drill a hole in your head, known risks aside.
I'm not "open" to the idea that dislocation of vertebrae in the neck causes TN, for the same reason that I'm not open to the nonsense notion called "subluxation" of the Atlas. There is simply no physiological evidence for any explainable mechanism in either one. There are no "stats" on stroke associated with spinal manipulation. But there are case reports -- a level of evidence that appears to be about the same as that which suggests a cause and effect association between neck problems and TN.
Chiropractors do help some people, some of the time, including some TN patients. But their branch of medicine has been remarkably coy about participating in controlled randomized trials. I've yet to see a trial published, or long term follow-up statistics on any large number of chiropractic patients. By contrast, I've seen any number of patient testimonials touted in various individual Chiropractor sites, making claims that I find speculative at best. By contrast, MVD has helped tens of thousands of patients whose primary pain pattern is typical TN. And outcomes have been confirmed in an extensive body of medical literature.
The first responsibility of the moderators here is not to do harm or permit harm. Deflecting patients into unproven procedures for mythical medical issues is not constructive. That may not sit well with members who operate with a strong personal agenda, but that's the way it is.
I think this thread has gone as far as it needs to go. I will leave it up for the rest of the week, so that participants can read the exchange and decide for themselves whether there is something here that they want to pursue for themselves off-site. The discussion will be deleted thereafter.
But Red we are talking about more then just chiropractors. Or NUCCA. I know how you feel about that. We are also talking about physiotherapists. They have a valid place in treatment and healing. I understand how you feel about cervical therapy but why is it so ridiculous that nerve pain in the face couldn't be connected to the neck. And why is it so hard to talk about it? And I don't support chiropractic "adjustments" either but there is other types of therapy available for alignment of the cervical spine. It just seems that sometimes there is a lot missing from the conversation. And I don't understand why. The point of this website is to support the sufferers. And why are we not aloud to have a healthy argument over it at least.
I find the idea of craniosacral therapy to be a bit ludicrous, so I do agree with Red for the most part. There is no conceivable way that lightly touching certain parts of the head and neck moves the so called "tides" of cerebrospinal fluid. However, it's possible that it can work for some people through a different mechanism.
I actually saw a physiotherapist who specializes in the head and neck region, particularly the TMJ. He has a doctorate in physiotherapy. He told me that pain is basically a sum of various noxious stimuli, and he would try to remove some noxious stimuli through correcting my posture and massaging my jaw and neck. Unfortunately, nothing that he did provided any benefit so we mutually agreed that it was pointless for me to keep going. He actually called me after a few months to follow up. His conclusion is that my pain is a neuropathy caused by direct damage to the trigeminal nerve, so that's where the noxious stimulus is mainly generated from. My neck is fine so he told me that he wouldn't be able to help.
For other patients, perhaps the positive stimuli generated from having someone gently touch them is enough to relieve their pain. I don't believe in chi, cerebrospinal fluid tides, or chiropractic subluxation, but I do believe that human touch can be a source of pain relief.
Dislocation of the vertebrae of the neck could indeed cause TN, but although TN is unpleasant to say the least, if an individual had dislocated their neck TN would be the least of their worries.
A subluxation, is a restriction of movement. Hence a subluxation of the atlas is a restriction of movement within its normal range of movement in association with the occiput and axis. If the atlas moves say through A-D, a subluxation would mean it is stuck at A,B,C or D or only moving through the range of say B-C only, a restriction of movement within its normal range.
Subluxations can be caused by injury to either the muscles, ligaments, discs and joints of the spine. Any physical therapist (of which ever discipline), orthopaedic, doctor, surgeon recognises this. Whilst physical therapists recognise this, they also recognise a subluxation isn't always treated with spinal manipulation, i.e. the twist and pop to which you allude. As an extreme example, a fracture of the cervical spine would cause a subluxation of the spine, in the form of a protective muscle spasm, no therapist/ medic is going to suggest cracking of the spine as the answer to the problem.
Physical therapists don't go to college for three+ years, just to learn spinal cracking, which could be done in a week.
As for cause and effect association, between the neck and TN, there is plenty of physiological, anatomical evidence, as a start anyone can google TN cervical spine and convergence or anatomy cervical spine convergence.
Sgarbi Nicolás et al,in their paper 'Anatomy of the Trigeminal Nerve. Key Anatomical Facts for MRI Examination of Trigeminal Neuralgia', a total of six medical professionals, recognise the neck as a source of facial pain stating 'Finally, the inferior nucleus occupies the tegmentum of the medulla, extending caudally to the first segments of the cervical spine, and is in charge of thermal and pain information. Its location explains the possible appearance of symptoms in the facial territory in patients with a degenerative/inflammatory disorder of the upper cervical spine'. They don't, unfortunately go on to suggest analysis of the MRI in relation to the upper cervical spine but place emphasis on finding vascular compressive elements. This is most unfortunate, because of the territory of the trigeminal complex, the upper cervical spine would have already have been imaged on the MRI so for little extra, degenerative/ inflammatory disorders would be missed. In my opinion this happens often, the medics consumed by the vascular compression theory.
http://webcir.org/revistavirtual/articulos/diciembre11/uruguay/uru_...
I feel it is not about "being remarkably coy about participating in controlled randomized trials", with only circa 15/100,000 of the population suffering TN, find enough people in the numbers needed to conduct a meaningful study, willing to travel in their condition, at their expense, possibly hundreds of miles on maybe a weekly basis, when the medics say the answer, more than likely covered by insurance, is MVD, and if all goes well you will be home the next day. This situation is made worse by folks refusing TN can be caused by the neck, so patients aren't able to make an informed decision as to best treatment choices/ options.
TN due to the cervical spine is far from mythical, and accepting the issue, as the six medics quoted do, would mean a number of patients would be able to explore treatment options appropriate to their cervical spine disorder be it physical therapy, medical or surgical procedures.
To delete this thread is wrong on so many issues, this thread or any other with regards to TN the neck/ dental issues.
Red, ask your MVD surgeon with whom you last communicated about TN and the neck, the direct question, "Is the neck ever the cause of trigeminal neuralgia?" If they answer no, I guaranty they won't want their name quoted,as they would be making a ratner of a blunder. If they do answer no and are willing to be quoted feel free to delete my forum profile.
Richard A. "Red" Lawhern said:
I'm not "open" to the idea that dislocation of vertebrae in the neck causes TN, for the same reason that I'm not open to the nonsense notion called "subluxation" of the Atlas. There is simply no physiological evidence for any explainable mechanism in either one. There are no "stats" on stroke associated with spinal manipulation. But there are case reports -- a level of evidence that appears to be about the same as that which suggests a cause and effect association between neck problems and TN.
Chiropractors do help some people, some of the time, including some TN patients. But their branch of medicine has been remarkably coy about participating in controlled randomized trials. I've yet to see a trial published, or long term follow-up statistics on any large number of chiropractic patients. By contrast, I've seen any number of patient testimonials touted in various individual Chiropractor sites, making claims that I find speculative at best. By contrast, MVD has helped tens of thousands of patients whose primary pain pattern is typical TN. And outcomes have been confirmed in an extensive body of medical literature.
The first responsibility of the moderators here is not to do harm or permit harm. Deflecting patients into unproven procedures for mythical medical issues is not constructive. That may not sit well with members who operate with a strong personal agenda, but that's the way it is.
I think this thread has gone as far as it needs to go. I will leave it up for the rest of the week, so that participants can read the exchange and decide for themselves whether there is something here that they want to pursue for themselves off-site. The discussion will be deleted thereafter.
I just need to chime in here again because I can actually speak from experience and my experience is the only reason I am so passionate about getting the word out.
I have a bulging disc at C5 C6. Have had it for a few years. I never had neck pain. What I did have was shoulder and arm pain which is common with that level in the cervical spine. I have also had facial pain and daily migraines around V1 on the left side. Bilateral ATN in all three branches which is not common with the level. Neither my Dr or Neuro would link these pains. In the spring I injured my neck further and started physio. Every week for three months. Hands on manipulation of the cervical spine and acupuncture.
I say that my physio has magic hands. Not only did her treatment alleviate my neck, shoulder and arm pain but my migraines and facial pain disappeared after the second treatment for three months. I have reduced my med from 60mgs to 25mgs and was still doing well until I reinjured my neck two weeks ago. I have started treatment again. Well after two treatments again everything is subsiding. I want to shout it from the rooftops because this is the first relief I have had.
I know that this scenario does not fit for everyone with facial pain but I am confident to say that it could help others. I think people with atypical pain that crosses several nerves--such as glossopharyngeal and geniculate may want to look into treatment for their neck.
And just because you may not agree with NUCCA or chiros I don't think you should throw the baby out with the bath water. There are other treatments available.