Has anyone worked with this clinic or another with a similar philosophy? I am a huge believer in inflammation being central to the pain response; and in controlling said inflammation and a return to nerve elasticity to control/manage the pain. However, I suspect that without root cause resolution (vascular compression, cervical injury, autoimmune response, viral/bacterial infection, etc), this treatment might not be a permanent option. Quite a few testimonials regarding effectiveness (I initially found this team through someones shared experience on another forum), but they all seem to have been catalogued immediately after treatment. I'm wondering if there are any long term experiences that could be shared?
There is next to no medical literature behind low level laser illumination as a therapy for any neurological disorder. In my personal view from a good bit of reviewing medical literature, you might as well be shining a 40-watt light bulb on your neck. I have also heard multiple complaints from people who went to these folks specifically and had a bad (and very expensive) outcome. Testimonials are the weakest form of medical evidence, and are too often purchased by discounting services or even outright payments.
If anyone has had a more positive outcome than those I've heard about in the past, feel free to offer your own experience.
Thanks Richard. Do you have any links regarding the negative experiences? Also, thanks for your opinion on the low light specific treatment. Any thoughts regarding inflammation reduction in general as part of TN pain management?
One of the things I do appreciate about this organization, is they seem to support the idea that TN is not due to any one single universal issue for everyone. The onset of TN pain is so severe that the very natural impulse is seek immediate relief, and almost all neurologists will pint to vascular compression.
my apologies. I initially saw your name as Richard. Sorry for the error.
Sean said:
Thanks Richard. Do you have any links regarding the negative experiences? Also, thanks for your opinion on the low light specific treatment. Any thoughts regarding inflammation reduction in general as part of TN pain management?
One of the things I do appreciate about this organization, is they seem to support the idea that TN is not due to any one single universal issue for everyone. The onset of TN pain is so severe that the very natural impulse is seek immediate relief, and almost all neurologists will pint to vascular compression.
No worries: I answer to both "Richard" and "Red" (My hair isn't any more). As for the links, not directly (members have asked me not to associate their names with their reports). I can only report what people have shared with me via site email or direct inquiries through my other accounts. I've heard from at least three people who got no cessation of pain after two weeks of "treatment". One of them was offered a repeat of the treatment. All three reported costs in the $7-10,000 dollar range and refusal to consider refunds.
Both are fairly recent and some what vague in their abstract.
I would have to agree with RED and his conclusion. Either way if it addresses inflammation it is going to be symptomatic, not addressing the cause of inflammation. There are other ways of addressing inflammation, which in many ways is the common denominator
You state ' they seem to support the idea that TN is not due to any one single universal issue for everyone.' If I was trying to sell a product concerning inflammation, this would make good marketing sense, a wider audience and not necessarily a positive. Though the actual statement holds true.
Folks are able to spend circa $ 6000+, and I struggle to get people to consider their neck as a cause/ or discount it. I realise my mistake and those of others. Hence my new tariff, $1000 for a consultation, $900 for subsequent treatments which you will need to sign up for a minimum of 15, can't afford? here is a loan company more than willing, problem solved. Jeez if it costs that much it must be good!
To think the school fees had been worrying me.If you can't get through due to demand, leave a message we will get back to you, no question, a gold plated promise.
It's sad the way it works when folk are struggling. No offence meant.
Certainly in agreement that inflammation is symptomatic, and root cause needs to be addressed. Having said that, I also wonder if at some point prolonged inflammation develops into autoimmune/connective tissue disorders, progressively exacerbating the condition?
Regarding cervical approaches...one of the challenges to be confronted is reluctance in the field to consider the possibility. Neurologists (or other qualified medical professionals) who are willing to make a serious investigation may be the exception.
An interesting thought, which I haven't considered to any extent (read at all). I consider most autoimmune diseases need a trigger. Why wouldn't prolonged inflammation be one? I don't know of the research, but I suspect it is probably somewhere, but I've personally not considered it. Interesting makes a lot of sense. Someone is perhaps about to come along and make me feel stupid- fine we all learn somewhere. Regardless what might or not be out there Sean, I like the thought process and shall look into it. It certainly adds sense to autoimmune as a whole. Very interested.
A very quick search of PUBMED, would suggest you are probably right, I'll take a further look later. In the case of trigeminal neuralgia I wonder which is the autoimmune reaction directed at most, vascular or musculoskeletal elements or both. If so which is the symptomatic element?
Inflammation is such a broad term. How do you define inflammation and identify the type? Are there even different types? (I know nothing about it except the fact that it gets mentioned many times but I don't know if it's a single black and white clear cut thing)
It would seem a broad term, but that is because it is the bodies way of healing and so occurs in many many instances of disease/ in response to pathogens, including tn.
For whatever this may be worth, I recall having waded through a paper a few years ago which described genetic changes in nerve fibers involved in chronic pain. The premise of the article seemed to be that prolonged chronic pain causes toxic chemical byproducts in the nerve, which in turn cause gene mutations which become permanent over time. I wish I still had the links, but I don't. If we accord credence to this train of reasoning, then timely and effective intervention against acute pain becomes even more important, before it can become chronic.
Regards, Red
aiculsamoth said:
Sean,
An interesting thought, which I haven't considered to any extent (read at all). I consider most autoimmune diseases need a trigger. Why wouldn't prolonged inflammation be one? I don't know of the research, but I suspect it is probably somewhere, but I've personally not considered it. Interesting makes a lot of sense. Someone is perhaps about to come along and make me feel stupid- fine we all learn somewhere. Regardless what might or not be out there Sean, I like the thought process and shall look into it. It certainly adds sense to autoimmune as a whole. Very interested.
if that study surfaces again, would be interesting to see.
For my wife, there is a remarkably positive impact if she keeps her stress low. The correlation between chronic stress and inflammation are well established. I'm not by any means isolating a single cause/effect event. I increasingly believe there are multiple variables at play, and for every person those variables will be different. As a result, what works for one may or may not work for someone else. I have also been looking into the potential impact of low progesterone. There are some compelling reasons to suspect for some this could be playing a role; demographic of sufferers (disproportionate distribution of peri-post-menopausal women and women with low P), some women report significantly decreased TN symptoms when taking P as part of a separate hormone program or pregnancy (having said that, this is certainly not universal), as well as a growing understanding of Progesterones role in both myelination & remyelinization, as well as an immune system regulator. This will even impact men, as there is a link between low progesterone & low-T.
My current thinking is that chronic stress induced inflammation and/or low P alone would not cause TN, but they could play an exacerbating role. Conversely, establishing healthy levels of both could have a positive impact for some in overall nerve health. Again, I’m not sure if one or both of these alone are sufficient to be a root cause; some sort of initial nerve trauma very probably plays a central role.
Haven't yet come across a paper which states acute inflammation changes to Autoimmune/ connective, but acute to chronic depending which tissues become chronically inflammed, the below might make some sense.
The following from a chiropractor, I'm going to post in the forgotten back room, The main reason I don't rely on medical tests unless there are 'Red Flags', which require emergency medical treatment. A pill is never going to be the answer, lets hide a few symptoms. I would be surprised if anyone could sensibly argue against this chiropractors point in the main.
Another, which indicates the cervical portion of the trigeminal complex,
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25660342 mentioning astrocytes and discounting glia, although I remember a mention in a paper of glia activation at the trigeminal ganglion which I can't find.
From what I can find oestrogen is more of an issue than progesterone, I'd like to know the grounding otherwise, yet I can't find it, why do you choode to focus on-P? any specifics.
You mention progesterones role in myelination. I'm unaware of this. What I'm unsure about is the action of arterial compression at the nerve root which is the most common area of suggested vascular compression yet to my knowledge this is an area of central myelination and does not remyelinate. I've asked several folk in the know, including the many knowledgeable but as yet no known answer provided. Have you in your travels come across anything?
I ask because of you being seriously proactive. A no is fine.
Sean said:
if that study surfaces again, would be interesting to see.
For my wife, there is a remarkably positive impact if she keeps her stress low. The correlation between chronic stress and inflammation are well established. I'm not by any means isolating a single cause/effect event. I increasingly believe there are multiple variables at play, and for every person those variables will be different. As a result, what works for one may or may not work for someone else. I have also been looking into the potential impact of low progesterone. There are some compelling reasons to suspect for some this could be playing a role; demographic of sufferers (disproportionate distribution of peri-post-menopausal women and women with low P), some women report significantly decreased TN symptoms when taking P as part of a separate hormone program or pregnancy (having said that, this is certainly not universal), as well as a growing understanding of Progesterones role in both myelination & remyelinization, as well as an immune system regulator. This will even impact men, as there is a link between low progesterone & low-T.
My current thinking is that chronic stress induced inflammation and/or low P alone would not cause TN, but they could play an exacerbating role. Conversely, establishing healthy levels of both could have a positive impact for some in overall nerve health. Again, I’m not sure if one or both of these alone are sufficient to be a root cause; some sort of initial nerve trauma very probably plays a central role.