A Philosophy of the Atypical Pain: Seeking Clarification

I wrote the following on another discussion. It serves as a good intro to the message I sent to one of the moderators, who has not replied. Maybe she is off the site. I don't know.

I think these last few comments are hitting a target not discussed on this site. We all take it as a given, in light of the statements of some doctors and their popularizers on this group, that the phrase "atypical facial pain" (a neurological pain) is often a wrong diagnosis (which raises and doesn't answer the question: are there cases in which it is the right diagnosis?) and in those cases should be called atypical trigeminal neuralgia, as if this were a way to save the stigma attaching to ATP. i.e, that it is an affliction of the mentally or emotionally disturbed. The thinking is, we really don't know the cause, so let's call it something nonprejudicial -- EVEN IF THE MOST EFFECTIVE MODES OF TREATMENT ARE ESSENTIAL THE SAME; in my case, amitriptyline +.

I feel that these efforts to destigmatize facial pain may fall short of convincing and actually do harm to some sufferers. We don't make something so because we want it to be so. In fact, the flight to ATN can be seen as further stigmatizing mental or emotional injury and so work to put those accurately diagnosed as having AFP, if they exist, into even deeper into isolation. I will now publish a message I sent to Stef, who wrote the original piece on this site touting the new lingo some years ago. I have not gotten a reply (maybe Stef gets to the site rarely these days), so, after 2 attempts, I will publish it all and hope for a substantive dialogue. Look for the title "A Philosophy of Atypical Pain." My focus is on clarifying meanings and implications as opposed to giving advice or asking for help. A little wonky, but, i think, answering these question has important practical implications.

ORIGINAL MESSAGE

I have suffered from facial pain for decades, but found this group relatively recently. After hearing that some facial pain specialists were recommending a new way to talk about what doctors (including my own and the one he sent me to for a second opinion) have been calling Atypical Facial Pain, I was intrigued. Maybe I wasn’t perpetrating a cruel hoax on my doctors and myself after all.

I was first diagnosed with fibromyalgia by a neurologist, and later with AFP a rheumatologist. On my own, I took to calling the facial pain “fibromyalgia of the face.” I found that I could make my new pain easier to understand for those who knew me by casting it as an extension of an already existing complaint. So, to them it’s all soft tissue pain, not joint pain. I’m not entirely sure that’s wrong (it is all soft tissue pain). The fact that so many members of this group are also fibromyalgia sufferers is certainly cause for thought.

After reading your piece on this site, I became convinced, or wanted to be convinced, that my facial pain was misdiagnosed as AFP and that it more readily fit under the banner of ATN. This meant I wasn’t just a hypochondriac -- which I am, because fearing the worst is just something I do. Of course, I had “emotional problems” and still do, but my hypochondria takes another form entirely: that of unreasonable worrying about real things happening to my body. I would see a “growth” of some kind and fear it was cancer. The growth was there, sure enough, but it wasn’t what I feared it was. It was something innocuous.

But pain?

The problem, of course, is that my pain can’t be seen by a doctor the way he sees a growth. Although my doctor can infer pain from my behavior (which include my words, “I’m in pain”), he can also deny it from my behavior (my fingers range up to massage my head, as if that did any good,or I tell him “I am sad”). This pain sure seems every bit as real as a visible physical symptom, only it private to me. Although the “etiology” may be “unknown,” I was thrilled to find out, from you, what I always believed or at least wanted to believe: that it couldn't be all in my head and so a matter for a shrink to deal with. I had felt minimized by my AFP diagnosis, and then you and others gave me back my reality, a physically painful place to be, but a better place to be psychologically. I didn't have a mind disease. I had a brain disease. (Let's drop for the moment the question of body-mind relationship.)

I’m a very careful observer of my own symptoms and repeatedly told my doctors that I couldn’t for the life of me correlate my level of stress or depression (I have seen a therapist on and off in my life) with more pain. Indeed, barometric pressure seems more closely tied to my pain than state of mind or anything else. Nor could I identify particularly high levels stress or depression with the onset of, first, bodily pain and, after that, facial pain. Quite the contrary: I specifically recall that both were preceded by a mono-like illness that persisted for months, the symptoms of which would revisit me several times a year for days or weeks at a time over many years – ending fairly recently, without warning or explanation.

My rheumatologist said I had “active Epstein-Barr,” but never specifically tied the virus to any of the pain. He did venture a number of theories about the mechanism of my pain, a notable one being that my blood vessels were getting false signals to constrict, which might also explain my pale complexion. Personally, I remain hooked on the virus-did-it explanation. Perhaps my Epstein-Barr did a number on my nervous system as a whole, which would eventually translate into overactive facial nerves. So, for someone diagnosed with AFP, it would then be reasonable to expect a more global influence than just the pain triggered by malfunction in the trigeminal nerve. And I had it: fibromyalgia.

In any case, after a time, he appeared to give up on etiology and started referring to my pain as the "flip side of my depression." I never accepted that model. But why, I now wonder, should I reject it out of hand? After all, I found I could manage my facial pain to a certain degree using the same meds that have, much more successfully, managed my bodily pain: Xanax and Elavil. That is to say, by an anti-anxiety drug and an anti-depressant. This made it difficult for me to claim confidently to others and myself that it was not “all in my mind.” I would explain, for instance, that I was not taking Elavil in doses large enough to lift one from depression. I could also point out that, when prescribed antidepressants in large enough doses to be effective on my mood, there was no effect on my pain. The same is true of various other modalities I’ve tried, like biofeedback, guided mediation, acupuncture, and therapeutic massage. But, secretly, I harbored the fear that maybe stress and depression lay at the root of my symptoms.

So here are my questions: despite the fact that ATN is a less ego-bruising diagnosis than AFP, how is ATN any less a “wastebasket term” than AFP? That “A” in AFP and ATN raises more questions than it answers. In Striking Back, Dr. Casey and co-author, present, without criticism, another doctor’s model for facial pain in which AFP is just one of seven types and is marked by the presence of pain outside the radius of the trigeminal nerve’s influence (like the pain of fibromyalgia). This type is characterized as psychogenic.

Casey’s recently released video talk would seem to reject this notion. But apart from the virtue of preserving my ego, what reason is there for rejecting the psychogenic hypothesis? What exactly is the difference between the two diagnoses? Do MRIs of ATN sufferers look like MRIs of TN1 sufferers or do they look like MRIs of those who are pain-free.

And even if the former show pain in the brain, why couldn’t it be psychogenic? Maybe the “unknown etiology” of some cases called AFP is indeed psychogenic. Maybe some people in this group now diagnosed as having ATN, by a doctor or by the Internet (by themselves or by others who believe they have ATN), really do have AFP: a physical disease caused by emotion, and amenable to treatment by an emotion doctor, only they’d rather not think so for reasons of ego alone. In my own case, maybe my responsiveness to Xanax reflects this fact. On the other hand, maybe Xanax works for me because my out-of-whack nervous system, whatever the cause (a virus, a phobia, or bad dentistry), needs continual quieting.

I now have a neurologist who seems to have little experience with TN. He accepts my diagnosis because his drug of choice for AFP and ATN is the same: Elavil. There is almost no point in going to him if I’m interested in new meds or treatment modalities. And, to be honest, I don’t know how interested I am, since I fear the possibility of the pain getting worse, not better, with no getting back to where I am now. Also, I’m now facing other medical problems, problems not conjured up by my life-long hypochondria. I now know what it is like for a blood test to come back positive –- and to experience potentially life-threatening, not just chronic, illness.

But whatever I choose to do now about the pain, I would still like to find out WHAT THE HECK IS GOING ON HERE. This pain has marred my life. Even if no one else quite sees it, I believe I’ve carried on almost heroically, looking normal while feeling like hell. The seeker in me just wants to know what caused this hell.

I think the central question in your article is "what difference does it make whether we call a particular type of pain 'atypical trigeminal neuralgia' or 'atypical facial pain'?" My response is that the difference can be substantive and very negative for the patient. Atypical Facial Pain is a diagnosis by reduction, not a positive medical entity. It carries the implication that the pain is not medical in origin because it doesn't fit patterns that the doctor understands from his or her education. Thus the doctor's lack of comprehension becomes YOUR mental health stigma.

When the label of "psychogenic" gets attached to your medical records, it is reliable that you'll get less attentive and less effective medical care. This principle is repeatedly illustrated in responses received from the online survey we conducted 18 months ago, of patients referred by medical doctors to mental health practitioners. Likewise, there are major issues of science -- or lack thereof -- in the entire class of so-called psychosomatic or "somatoform" disorders as defined in the most recent edition of the APA's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5).

Although the reading is difficult, I highly commend Angela Kennedy's book "Authors of Our Own Misfortune? Problems with psychogenic explanations for physical illnesses." It's available on Amazon, and it utterly demolishes claims made by some financially self-interested or academic practitioners that chronic pain can be "caused by" depression, anxiety, or childhood emotional trauma.

Although I realize you may be comfortable with the term, Howard, Kennedy also questions the usefulness of the label "hypochondria". This is not to say that your concentration on symptoms and a tendency to jump to worst-case conclusions before the evidence is in, are not a problem for you. Winding yourself into a tizzy can certainly be more stress than any chronic pain patient will find helpful. But it suggests that you might be better served by being treated for Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder or chronic anxiety, rather than under the assumption that you are in some way malingering or catastrophizing your own symptoms.

Supportive therapy is helpful for some pain patients, some of the time, by lowering stress levels that aggravate pain by dumping excess adrenalin into your system. But there is no reliable trials data to demonstrate that resolving past emotional traumas actually aids in managing a present neurological pain condition. This distinction is quite meaningful, I assure you.

I also suggest a reading of "Psychogenic Pain and Iatrogenic Suicide" on DxSummit.org, a website of the Society for Humanistic Psychology called "Global Summit for Diagnostic Alternatives". The article provides supporting evidence and references for some of the discussion above.

Go in Peace and Power

Red Lawhern, Ph.D.

Resident Research Analyst, LWTN

1 Like

That's a very interesting slant on the whole issue of 'What's the proper name for my disease?' syndrome, Howard. I had never thought of it from quite that far into mental health diagnostics before, probably because my classic TN could never be mistaken for a mental health issue: like something out the Wizard of Oz - it has a real name and everything!

Nevertheless, I think that no matter how wonderful it feels to have ATN as an umbrella catch-all to bundle your symptoms under, it is a really dangerous thing. It's like a form of medical enabling. I think the lure is tremendous. After years of being given everything from diagnoses of migraine to mental heath issues, i.e., being told 'you're crazy' a new way, think of the sheer physical relief of being able to give the monster a name and feel like you have a REAL disease. It's like a shelter in a storm. Who wouldn't jump at it?

But it's a facile shelter, something that ultimately, like a co-dependent relationship, is going to lead to you bending yourself out of shape, trying to make your disease fit, begging doctor after doctor to perform useless ops, give you unsuitable meds, or just pay any attention to your misfit symptoms at all. It's like you'd suddenly decided to give your disease the name Atypical Measles. In enough time, with enough people doing it, it looks like a crazy party, with all the ATN followers jumping on, shoving all their barely resemblant complaints in the one cart, so that ultimately ATN looks like a collection of oddballs with 'head problems'.

And at the top of the pile, reigning supreme, are the REAL TN sufferers with their classic TN that the doctors have the working meds for, the working ops, all those great gifts, while you struggle on as the poor cousins.

I think that all the ATN sufferers have very real neurological complaints. Somewhere, somehow in their histories, a nerve has been damaged. As long as they are 'hiding' under ATN, doctors can dismiss that damage, because it's not the classic vascular problem, and just dismiss them as untreatable. They're like the lepers of the Trigeminal world, and that's already leper-like enough, thanks, even for the 'real' sufferers. How bad do you have to be to locked out the leper colony? The crazy ones that imagine they feel tingling down one leg at the same time as they feel pain in their jaws - WTF? ATN gives doctors an excuse to write those complaints off because there is no way tingling legs or a clicking neck or back pain could be a part of TN. It just doesn't fit.

I think the real term, Neuropathic Facial Pain, is both accurate and sane. It may not be much of a diagnosis, but it 'does what it says on the tin'. It states clearly it's a nerve problem and it's in the face. End of. It puts the onus firmly on the doctor to find its neurological cause. He can't wriggle out of it as atypical anything, because it IS typical, and it IS real, no mental health issues involved. Because nerves are all ultimately linked, it's perfectly possible to have backache, a headache and see lights. It's possible to have vomiting, a tingly leg and a locked jaw. Nothing is beyond Neuropathic Facial Pain's scope, as long as you also have pain in your face from a nerve problem.

With a diagnosis of ATN or TN2, however, you are always failing at some level. It may be comforting to have a name for it, but I feel it's the wrong name and is really just consigning the sufferers to a kind of lonely hell where they have been abandoned by doctors in a kind of no-man's land dumping ground. It may be a crap deal to have Classic TN as a diagnosis, but I'm still mighty glad that's how my dice fell and I didn't get landed with ATN. At least my doctors know vaguely what to do. I hope!

I take both meds - 1 gm alpraz/Xanax and 50 gm. amltripyline/Elavil -- on rising. If I forget, and strangely I sometimes do, the boring feeling that is always there matures into intense pressure felt on both sides of my head and burning in all the soft tissue of my head. Once it hits that point, no amount of meds brings me back to functionality that day. If I take my early, I have a decent few hours, after which I need a booster. I am not put back at my morning level, but it helps. If I work out, do chores, or just take an afternoon nap, the next build-up is pushed to later in the day. Then I have a choice to make. I take a bedtime dose, so the question is do I take a dinner time dose? Often I just tough it out, not wanting to overdo the alprazolam, but also to give myself an option to take an even later dose because my insomnia kicks in.

Cleo said:

On your profile you mention being on Xanax for decades. Do you take it daily at certain hours or just as needed whenever?



Cleo said:

On your profile you mention being on Xanax for decades. Do you take it daily at certain hours or just as needed whenever?

I am pondering both of these thoughtful responses and at the same time wondering why, with 46 views, there hasn't been much of a response. Perhaps you nailed it: TN1 is clearly a "positive medical entity," as Ben puts it, but TN2 is only arguably one. People would prefer to have an arguably positive diagnosis than an insulting one -- and so they do not pursue these questions.

I really have a problem with the flat statement that stress can't be the cause of chronic pain. First, there's the almost axiomatic-by-now interconnection between mental and physical. Indeed, doctors often recommend reduction of pain by way of stress reduction. Why can't the relationship hold going in the other direction, i.e., causation? Also, if the pain of TN is supposed to be the result of injury to the central facial nerve, why couldn't sustained or traumatic stress cause such injury? Referring to childhood experiences kind of loads the dice (I never mentioned them), don't you think? Not that I'm sure such a link is impossible (a contemporary experience might be the proximate cause of injury, but, it could be argued, this experience would not have occurred in the absence of some unresolved childhood issue). It inserts a straw man into the debate, I think. (I have noticed the book on Amazon but not yet bought it.)

I asked whether ATN is a "wastebasket term" like AFP because it still acts like a bastard offspring. The fact is, I went thru many meds, prescribed over the years by my Western-trained rheumatologist, for my fibromyalgia and AFP, that did nothing for me, including many taken by people in this group. I underwent acupuncture, administered by the same doctor (whose approach was "whatever it takes." (That's why he learned acupuncture in the first place). I did biofeedback, movement therapy, therapeutic massage, etc. Both TN2 and AFP sufferers are stuck with the same Nothing appearing on MRIs (correct me if I am wrong) and live a life in which they are always changing meds to find the "right" combo. I still feel very much in the wastebasket myself.

I have many of the same questions about my fibromyalgia. Something, it seems, has attacked my whole nervous system. Or I've been attacked by two separate aggressors, which makes me highly (and suspiciously) unlucky. What do you do with the hundreds (?) in this group who also suffer from fibromyalgia? What do you say to those with both tender spots in their knee pads and facial pain? I'm not sure "neurological" or "neuropathic" facial pain takes care of things. Why should we suppose that there can be a pain that is not related to overactive nerves? The question isn't "is there a cause of overactive nerves?" It's "what precisely is the cause?"

I meant Red, not Ben, sorry. I consider both friends

I believe absolutely that stress can actually cause illness - no discussion. As a matter of fact, the much-respected Malcolm Kendrick wrote a ground-breaking book called (I think) The Great Cholesterol Con in which he posits that it is stress that causes heart disease. No ifs or buts, he believes long-term stress causes the disease. I think the salient point here though is that it causes a disease. If Kendrick or some other scientist working in the field could actually prove their theory then that would be a direct cause and effect, but it needs a concrete disease as the end result. ATN is definitely not a concrete disease; it has too many variables.

This would also be the problem with a generalised neuropathic disease which was just a collection of random neuropathic pains - what would you call it, how could you define it? I suppose you could always call it Randomised Neuropathic Pain Disease! Likewise, Neuropathic Facial Pain does have to have a facial element otherwise there isn't any point in having it in the title! And like I said before, I think it is far superior to anything involving Atypical in the title, because that infers there's a typical, and that already has a name, thanks.

But you've touched on something I was thinking of starting as a thread. As a (more common) female sufferer of the disease I wondered if it was the female heart attack. I come from a long line of worriers. We're an anxious tribe, but most of them were male. Apart from one who keeled over from a first and final heart attack at forty, the rest all had heart disease (except for the ones that had my grandfather's build, but that's whole other [genetic] discussion). I, however, am female, and like the only sister in this family of males (my aunt), I inherited gallstones, but no heart condition. However, what if the female hormones that helped my heart could do nothing to stop the stress wear/damage to the arteries in my head, leading ultimately to TN? What if the stress was still doing damage, but not in the heart but in the head? Is my TN the female equivalent of my father and his brother's heart conditions? Certainly if Malcolm Kendrick is right, my father and his brothers were all highly stressed men and prime candidates for the disease - is that what my TN is too?

Anyway, just thought I'd throw it in there as another possibility for stress causing a disease ideology. All grist to the thinking mill......

thehoward said:

I am pondering both of these thoughtful responses and at the same time wondering why, with 46 views, there hasn't been much of a response. Perhaps you nailed it: TN1 is clearly a "positive medical entity," as Ben puts it, but TN2 is only arguably one. People would prefer to have an arguably positive diagnosis than an insulting one -- and so they do not pursue these questions.

I really have a problem with the flat statement that stress can't be the cause of chronic pain. First, there's the almost axiomatic-by-now interconnection between mental and physical. Indeed, doctors often recommend reduction of pain by way of stress reduction. Why can't the relationship hold going in the other direction, i.e., causation? Also, if the pain of TN is supposed to be the result of injury to the central facial nerve, why couldn't sustained or traumatic stress cause such injury? Referring to childhood experiences kind of loads the dice (I never mentioned them), don't you think? Not that I'm sure such a link is impossible (a contemporary experience might be the proximate cause of injury, but, it could be argued, this experience would not have occurred in the absence of some unresolved childhood issue). It inserts a straw man into the debate, I think. (I have noticed the book on Amazon but not yet bought it.)

I asked whether ATN is a "wastebasket term" like AFP because it still acts like a bastard offspring. The fact is, I went thru many meds, prescribed over the years by my Western-trained rheumatologist, for my fibromyalgia and AFP, that did nothing for me, including many taken by people in this group. I underwent acupuncture, administered by the same doctor (whose approach was "whatever it takes." (That's why he learned acupuncture in the first place). I did biofeedback, movement therapy, therapeutic massage, etc. Both TN2 and AFP sufferers are stuck with the same Nothing appearing on MRIs (correct me if I am wrong) and live a life in which they are always changing meds to find the "right" combo. I still feel very much in the wastebasket myself.

I have many of the same questions about my fibromyalgia. Something, it seems, has attacked my whole nervous system. Or I've been attacked by two separate aggressors, which makes me highly (and suspiciously) unlucky. What do you do with the hundreds (?) in this group who also suffer from fibromyalgia? What do you say to those with both tender spots in their knee pads and facial pain? I'm not sure "neurological" or "neuropathic" facial pain takes care of things. Why should we suppose that there can be a pain that is not related to overactive nerves? The question isn't "is there a cause of overactive nerves?" It's "what precisely is the cause?"

Hi all



I was reading in Striking Back a while ago that ATN is probably a form of misdiagnosed type of 1 TN and that they are one and they same or closely related.



This got me thinking quite a great deal as I have bilateral TN with Type 1 on the right and type 2 on the left.



I started to consider my face pain altogether differently after that.



In fact it was a turning point for me.



It’s the same pain in different forms I feel. The strike on the right are bad. Very very bad but don’t visit very often.



The constant pain on the left is not so bad but is with me every day,



But if the strikes were continuos and slightly reduced they would be the same.







I sorta think it’s just a different way of expressing the same pain although at a vastly different level.



Mind you if I had the type 2 at the intensity of the type 1 I would be in a bad bad place.



I will go and try and find the quote in Striking back if anyone is interested.



I notice in Australia the level of training for the medical experts and exposure of TN has come on leaps and bounds.



ATN is not used so much any more. (My experience)



Hope all are if not well then doin ok



Simon

Hi Simon, that is a really, really interesting idea, so yes, please, I would be very interested in hearing the actual quote from the book (I've never forked out to read it yet!). I find that idea particularly challenging because I have type 1 V3 and my pain is all in and via my teeth. I noticed quite early on that when the meds first started working for me that the electric shocks turned to a dull crescendo of throbbing. After that they went down to acute sensitivity. After that, briefly, when I was on higher meds, which unfortunately had unmanageable side effects, they dropped to milder sensitivity. I have never (yet) been pain-free, but I now have variable tooth sensitivity, which I have slowly come to realise is not a separate problem but THE problem. It is just being transformed by the meds into (what looks like) a different beast.

It took me the longest time to be sure of it and it was only the accident of coming on and off meds to get the dose right that confirmed for me that it was real, but no doctor or consultant has ever warned me that that would be what would happen - I suspect because they don't know! However, it does conform to what you are saying, so yes, a range of ATN sufferers could in fact merely be experiencing not so acute TN rather than a separate disease. That's a pretty amazing theory!

SimonL said:

Hi all

I was reading in Striking Back a while ago that ATN is probably a form of misdiagnosed type of 1 TN and that they are one and they same or closely related.

This got me thinking quite a great deal as I have bilateral TN with Type 1 on the right and type 2 on the left.

I started to consider my face pain altogether differently after that.

In fact it was a turning point for me.

It's the same pain in different forms I feel. The strike on the right are bad. Very very bad but don't visit very often.

The constant pain on the left is not so bad but is with me every day,

But if the strikes were continuos and slightly reduced they would be the same.



I sorta think it's just a different way of expressing the same pain although at a vastly different level.

Mind you if I had the type 2 at the intensity of the type 1 I would be in a bad bad place.

I will go and try and find the quote in Striking back if anyone is interested.

I notice in Australia the level of training for the medical experts and exposure of TN has come on leaps and bounds.

ATN is not used so much any more. (My experience)

Hope all are if not well then doin ok

Simon

A couple of observations, if I may.

1. Among medical professionals, there is presently a trend in opinion toward use of the term "trigeminal neuropathic pain" to describe forms of facial pain which present as constant 24-7, burning, throbbing pain -- instead of the roughly equivalent term "atypical trigeminal neuralgia". Treatment of the two labelled conditions is identical: if Tegretol, Trileptal, and Neurontin do not reduce the pain, then tricyclic antidepressants are tried. Sometimes both, or a cocktail.

2. There is also a general observation that trigeminal neuropathic pain appears to have different sources or processes than classic trigeminal neuralgia. Some physicians speculate that classic TN appears to have a local-area or "point" source in vascular compressions, while trigeminal neuropathic pain has more of a distributed and systemic or central nervous system character. Dr. Ken Casey who co-authored "Striking Back" offers the known details of the neuro-biology for these forms of pain in a segment of his 2-hour video, linked from the main page here at Living With TN.

3. The derivation of "atypical facial pain" is somewhat murky, but appears to have a significant association among some professionals with the term "somatoform pain disorder" -- a mental health entity in the 4th edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders (1994). That term has now disappeared in the DSM-5, but it continues to cast a shadow over perceptions of medical doctors. My own insight is that AFP is a label roughly equivalent to "you have facial pain which appears to cross the midline of the face, and that violates what we know of the physical distribution of the nerves. Since it CAN'T be a medical problem, you must have a mental or emotional problem that is presenting as physical." At least one major pain association in the US describes AFP as a "psychogenic" pain disorder, with slightly fancier terms.

In my view, this latter label is dangerous claptrap which actively harms patients by denying them appropriate medical treatment and confusing the issues. It also ignores a demographic which we discovered by analyzing the membership here at Living With TN. About 20% of our members have pain on both sides of their faces -- usually of different characters or at different times rather than "crossing the mid-line of the face". I think a lot of poorly trained doctors fail to investigate the differences and sequencing of pain in the two sides of the face, and thus jump to the conclusion that the patient must be dissembling (misrepresenting what they feel physically) for some emotional reason.

I believe it is well established that neurological pain of both major types in the face can be aggravated by stress and anxiety. The mechanisms are complex and probably not fully understood. But one other thing that we should weigh in the balance: heart attack and ulcers are no longer believed to be caused by life stress, though both were once routinely assigned that cause without proof. Diet, and heredity are far more reliable contributors to heart attack, well established by multiple controlled randomized studies. And we now understand that ulcers are caused by campylobacter infection of the gut.

I realize that some people may feel stigmatized by being told "we don't really (or fully) know what causes trigeminal neuropathic pain." However this statement actually represents progress because it signifies that doctors must now acknowledge uncertainty instead of asserting certainly that the PROBLEM must all be in the patient's emotions or mental state. The same can also be said quite meaningfully of fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome/ME and subtle forms of Lyme Disease. In all of these disorders, we DO know that there are definite and consistent neurological anomalies that can be regarded as markers. Thus we're in a situation with such disorders which seems quite anomalous to the identification of Parkinsons and MS a generation ago.

Go in Peace and Power

Red

I am at a point in my life, I do not care what caused it, though during my first MVD, it was found I had bone pressing on the nerve. As for my ATN who knows? Personally, I do not see TN as a soft tissue disorder, but from what I am learning, it is faulty regulation of nerve excitability, which talks to brain function. I encourage you to research "Substance P." which causes inflammation, and is a major cause of Fibromyalgia.

My reaction is the same: Amazing! I wonder if you have heard of anyone else like you or whether you are as rare as the poor individuals who have had the connection severed (by accident) between their right and left brains, who have taught so much to neurologists. It seems we should learn something from your case. I'm not sure I know just what it is, though.

I had a week of toothache (top and bottom molars) accompanied by shocks to one side of the head (just above the affected teeth). This pain was diagnosed by a dentist as TN and he actually rid me of both by correcting my bite. This temporary TN1 on the one side did not, at any time, displace my TN2. It came on top of it. And, boy, was it an education: I was almost thankful I had TN2. The shocks! I also don't have many of the other types of experiences that are reported here. I don't have sensitivities to wind. I don't have triggers. I don't have breakthrough pain. I “only” have 24/7, bilateral all-encompassing boring/burning that grows worse as the day wears on. Having experienced the unfamiliar TN1 on top of the familiar TN2, I have to say they feel completely different. And both feel quite different from my fibromyalgia, which is a below-the-neck thing. Therefore it is hard for me to accept that they can be “the same, only different,” as you have concluded. Is TN2 the same as TN1, only not as intense and not continuous? Hard for me to see. It is no doubt correct to point out that people who believe they suffer from TN2 report widely divergent patterns of pain and widely different responses to meds. To me, this reflects the wastebasket quality of TN2.

As for stress and heart attacks, I can say this from unfortunate experience. A single underlying condition has apparently been at work inside me to make me vulnerable to kidney, heart, and brain events, and that condition is the build-up of fatty plaques in the arteries. That there can be many “different” organ failures from the same cause: eating poorly and sedentary habits that lead to cholesterol build-up in my blood vessels, which are of course are everywhere in my body. By the same token, it could be argued that there can be many “different” pain events from the same cause: stress leading to injury of the nerve, which are, like blood vessels, everywhere in my body. (I should point out that I in fact believe there is another force at play in my case, to wit, a virus! Why? Because I experienced a virus-like attack prior to the onset of body and, later, facial pain. You can find a stray mention of this in the literature. For a while, my “whatever It takes” doctor diagnosed me with “active” Epstein-Barr. While he never came to the conclusion that the virus caused nerve injury, I see no reason why it couldn’t. It is an extreme case, but the Herpes virus does cause AIDS, doesn’t it? A positive medical entity if ever there was one.

I don’t know what to say about Kendrick’s theory connecting stress to physical disease, but it is at least the case that stress can make one more vulnerable to disease, In which case we can debate the meaning of “cause” – or ask to specify the specific mind-body bridge that’s crossed.

BTW, I also read Striking Back – and was struck by another passage, in which Casey not disapprovingly cites 7 different kinds of facial pain, as delineated by another physician, reserving the term ATN for the psychogenic sort. Casey, the author in 2004, has apparently changed his mind, to judge from the statements he makes as a lecturer in 2014 (video posted to this group).

Howard, we have been following your discussion since the beginning, some parts being confusing and some wording just over our heads.We have to say so many great points brought out, which I think would make for some great discussions at another time like, OCD, chronic depression, PTSD, anxiety, etc.After almost 30 yrs. my gma said at the start of your discussion, she still guestions what the heck is wrong with her and at this point in the game she doesn't care what they call it she just wants a doable life.Her days have been pretty bad lately, so during the middle of the night, early mornings she plays catch up from the day before. We did have our own household discussion on this we do think Red explained real well on getting the diagnosis right and why.After gma's pain calmed down we discussed how lucky (I guess) she was her ent had been around quite awhile and knew what it was right off. She knows and is working on the mental issues that her drs. agree have been brought on by her tn1 and tn2 this past I guess maybe 2 yrs.She may have been a little depressed off and on over the yrs.but never anything even close to this. , the anxiety, the depression, the suicidal ideas this last yr. have been hard for the both of us. I have even been going to her important apps. with her, when her anxiety is over the top (her words) she tends to. babble. I don't mean just a little, it's BAD! (I LOVE MY GMA!) She can't help it, it's part of who she is and her phenobarb and that med has (I think) saved her life so Gma Babble Away! Her pain still is terrible way to much but no longer Horrible and lyrica for her 30 yr old migrains, they also get real bad but no longer even terrible. There is hope! If any of you would like to hear alittle more of gma's story please read my blog I think,, "STICK A FORK IN ME I'M DONE" It's only weeks old I think. I am sorry I have been all over the place with this post. Let's blame it on gma, I can't type while she babbles (LOL) and we both have been up all night.I do want to say good job to WWET on her explaination to neuropathic facial pain.Before I end this we would like to throw this out there maybe someone wants to share their thoughts.Gma has saw 3 neuro surgeons this yr. 2 of them being I don't know the 5 th or 6th opinion in all theses yrs.Her neuro Dr.Casey, who did her (failed) MVD in 2006 sent her a letter last Nov. after her visit and that letter stated neuro pathetic facial pain. Although that is the 1st time we had her that we have always been told tn1, tn2 migrains, tmj and something with her ear although her ear is some better since the phenobarb, that was the 1st thing she noticed. Go figure! Her nights after 10:00 or so till sometimes only 5:30 am,sometimes even till 9:30,11:30 am after months of increase of phenobarb are pretty good even pain free at times depending on the weather.Anyone else experience nightime being better? Her nights use to be a living hell! The weather is gma's BIGGEST TRIGGER and it sure doesn't take much! Don't get me wrong she has quite a few, don't open a window, don't let it get to cool or too hot in the house, DON'T TOUCH HER CHIN! That's one of the newest areas being affected, along with the right side of her tongue and down the back of her throat.HECK I DROPPED HER ON HER HEAD! winter before last (LOL) (ACCIDENTLY YA ALL!) YEAH she cried, it hurt, my heart felt like it was coming out my chest,she was already in pain. Then she laughed. We waited to see if the pain intensified! Sure didn't! This is the craziest disease I've heard about it! There's NO rhyme or reason to this.No wonder at times she thinks she's going crazy. Sorry I made such a mess out of this, you would of needed to be here.Ya all have a great day I'm out of here! PUNKIN

ne

I agree with most of what you say, Red, but I can't agree with "heart attack and ulcers are no longer believed to be caused by life stress, though both were once routinely assigned that cause without proof. Diet, and heredity are far more reliable contributors to heart attack, well established by multiple controlled randomized studies."

The book I mentioned by Malcolm Kendrick (here's the US link for you:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Great-Cholesterol-Con-Disease/dp/1844546101/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1406405394&sr=8-1&keywords=malcolm+Kendrick

is not an old book (approx. 2008?), nor is it quack tinfoil-hat wearing material. The man is an MD and his theories are based on the fact that the diet & lifestyle arguments no longer stand up to scientific scrutiny. The bulk of his book is about how Cholesterol has systematically been shown not to be the culprit in heart attacks (hence it nowadays being categorised as good and bad cholesterol), and that saturated fat is following rapidly on its heels. All this material is heavily researched and backed in the book, with scientific studies from reputable sources. This is not some 'vaccines cause autism' crank stuff. Even if it were, there are many, many studies now showing that there is something to the saturated fat diet not being anything like as dangerous as it was thought to be, not least all the people all over the world now eating high protein diets and thriving on them, with low cholesterol figures and arteries like a ten year-old's. That in itself shows that many of the dietary suppositions are completely wrong. And I should just point out here that I am not one of them, lest you think I am biased. I am predominantly vegetarian and eat a low sat fat diet!

Likewise the stress doesn't cause ulcers, a bacteria does, doesn't hold water either. At first the big thing was Helicobacter pylori (the more modern name for campylobacter) when it was first 'discovered'. It was roundly denounced and the Australians who discovered it were treated like imbeciles, but slowly it gained a foothold and then became commonly accepted and eventually, after many years, the medical world took it on board and started treating accordingly, and then slowly cracks began to appear - not least of which is the fact that it has been discovered that "over 80 percent of individuals infected with the bacterium are asymptomatic and it has been postulated that it may play an important role in the natural stomach ecology." (Wikipedia)

What's more, they discovered that treating people for ulcers by nuking their H. Pylori was a) not curing them and b) actually making them sick or sicker because it was destroying something that obviously played a beneficial role, only they didn't know what it was yet. I was one of them. Tested positive for H. Pylori, treated twice for it, when it failed to cure me the first time, and I then suffered various other ailments caused by killing all the H. Pylori, so no, H. Pylori has not been proven to cause ulcers - far from it. And diet has not been proven to cause heart attacks, although it may contribute (personally, I think obesity is the contributing factor, not per se diet, but that's a whole other discussion.)

As an interesting addendum to the ATN, AFP categorising - I live in the UK and I have never come across the AFP category here, nor seen any mention of it as a mental illness. However, I don't believe the DSM books are in use here to categorise mental illness. In the UK we appear to have (anyone in the UK correct me if I am wrong) only TN, ATN, and Neuropathic Facial Pain - that's our lot! We don't seem to categorise any of these neurological disorders as mental illnesses, and never have.

Richard A. "Red" Lawhern said:

A couple of observations, if I may.

1. Among medical professionals, there is presently a trend in opinion toward use of the term "trigeminal neuropathic pain" to describe forms of facial pain which present as constant 24-7, burning, throbbing pain -- instead of the roughly equivalent term "atypical trigeminal neuralgia". Treatment of the two labelled conditions is identical: if Tegretol, Trileptal, and Neurontin do not reduce the pain, then tricyclic antidepressants are tried. Sometimes both, or a cocktail.

2. There is also a general observation that trigeminal neuropathic pain appears to have different sources or processes than classic trigeminal neuralgia. Some physicians speculate that classic TN appears to have a local-area or "point" source in vascular compressions, while trigeminal neuropathic pain has more of a distributed and systemic or central nervous system character. Dr. Ken Casey who co-authored "Striking Back" offers the known details of the neuro-biology for these forms of pain in a segment of his 2-hour video, linked from the main page here at Living With TN.

3. The derivation of "atypical facial pain" is somewhat murky, but appears to have a significant association among some professionals with the term "somatoform pain disorder" -- a mental health entity in the 4th edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders (1994). That term has now disappeared in the DSM-5, but it continues to cast a shadow over perceptions of medical doctors. My own insight is that AFP is a label roughly equivalent to "you have facial pain which appears to cross the midline of the face, and that violates what we know of the physical distribution of the nerves. Since it CAN'T be a medical problem, you must have a mental or emotional problem that is presenting as physical." At least one major pain association in the US describes AFP as a "psychogenic" pain disorder, with slightly fancier terms.

In my view, this latter label is dangerous claptrap which actively harms patients by denying them appropriate medical treatment and confusing the issues. It also ignores a demographic which we discovered by analyzing the membership here at Living With TN. About 20% of our members have pain on both sides of their faces -- usually of different characters or at different times rather than "crossing the mid-line of the face". I think a lot of poorly trained doctors fail to investigate the differences and sequencing of pain in the two sides of the face, and thus jump to the conclusion that the patient must be dissembling (misrepresenting what they feel physically) for some emotional reason.

I believe it is well established that neurological pain of both major types in the face can be aggravated by stress and anxiety. The mechanisms are complex and probably not fully understood. But one other thing that we should weigh in the balance: heart attack and ulcers are no longer believed to be caused by life stress, though both were once routinely assigned that cause without proof. Diet, and heredity are far more reliable contributors to heart attack, well established by multiple controlled randomized studies. And we now understand that ulcers are caused by campylobacter infection of the gut.

I realize that some people may feel stigmatized by being told "we don't really (or fully) know what causes trigeminal neuropathic pain." However this statement actually represents progress because it signifies that doctors must now acknowledge uncertainty instead of asserting certainly that the PROBLEM must all be in the patient's emotions or mental state. The same can also be said quite meaningfully of fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome/ME and subtle forms of Lyme Disease. In all of these disorders, we DO know that there are definite and consistent neurological anomalies that can be regarded as markers. Thus we're in a situation with such disorders which seems quite anomalous to the identification of Parkinsons and MS a generation ago.

Go in Peace and Power

Red

Hi Saraiderin, I couldn't be like that at all! I am desperate to know what is causing my TN. I have an MRI coming up shortly and live in terror & hope. Terror that it may come up blank, because what do I do then? And hope that it may offer something concrete so we can do something concrete. There is nothing worse than blundering around in the dark, but I get absolutely that if you have been in a lot of pain, for perhaps years, you are too damn worn out to care any more, you just want it to stop.

But the Substance P thing looks very interesting. I'm going to read up on that one. Thanks for the tip!

saraiderin said:

I am at a point in my life, I do not care what caused it, though during my first MVD, it was found I had bone pressing on the nerve. As for my ATN who knows? Personally, I do not see TN as a soft tissue disorder, but from what I am learning, it is faulty regulation of nerve excitability, which talks to brain function. I encourage you to research "Substance P." which causes inflammation, and is a major cause of Fibromyalgia.

I remember you saying you had had a bite correction and it actually corrected the problem. I can never get any dentist or doctor to take that idea seriously though.

As for the heart disease/virus connection, I don't find this a strange idea. I know many people have posited a virus connection to heart attacks, for example, both from the idea of weakening the heart, and from the damage to inflammatory repair systems etc. Viruses can certainly be highly disruptive. Well, hell, they can kill people - how much proof do we need that they can do damage? I know one of things that viruses can do is change the structure of things; they can literally rebuild or permanently transform the function of something in the body. If that has happened to you, you could perhaps (I'm merely theorizing a fantasy scenario here, not making a real suggestion!) have had a virus that has permanently disabled a part of the nerve sheath repair system and all the nerves in your body are not being adequately maintained, leading to breakdowns anywhere in your body where wear is heaviest, so you experience it in your kidneys, your heart, your facial nerves and your mental functions. This would mean you could exhibit kidney disease, heart disease, neuralgia and 'mental illness' all from the same source, but my money would be on the fact that no doctor would ever put all those things together and come up with a virus as cause; they would almost certainly think they were separate problems.

It's been my experience of Western medicine that it is not holistic; big pictures are not their strong point.

As for the cholesterol theory, Gary Taubes,, Robert Lustig & Co, and even Kendrick if I recall, would all put the prime suspect there as an insulin problem and not, per se, a cholesterol problem. There is growing evidence that heart attacks, diabetes, gallstones and indeed most of the major Western illnesses, can be laid at the door of 'sugar', not fat, and that a misfiring insulin reaction is to blame for just about all of it, starting with obesity, which leads to heart disease/diabetes, and so on and so on...

For all we know, all us TN sufferers are suffering from a rare form of damage from too many cakes and sweets!

thehoward said:

My reaction is the same: Amazing! I wonder if you have heard of anyone else like you or whether you are as rare as the poor individuals who have had the connection severed (by accident) between their right and left brains, who have taught so much to neurologists. It seems we should learn something from your case. I'm not sure I know just what it is, though.

I had a week of toothache (top and bottom molars) accompanied by shocks to one side of the head (just above the affected teeth). This pain was diagnosed by a dentist as TN and he actually rid me of both by correcting my bite. This temporary TN1 on the one side did not, at any time, displace my TN2. It came on top of it. And, boy, was it an education: I was almost thankful I had TN2. The shocks! I also don't have many of the other types of experiences that are reported here. I don't have sensitivities to wind. I don't have triggers. I don't have breakthrough pain. I “only” have 24/7, bilateral all-encompassing boring/burning that grows worse as the day wears on. Having experienced the unfamiliar TN1 on top of the familiar TN2, I have to say they feel completely different. And both feel quite different from my fibromyalgia, which is a below-the-neck thing. Therefore it is hard for me to accept that they can be “the same, only different,” as you have concluded. Is TN2 the same as TN1, only not as intense and not continuous? Hard for me to see. It is no doubt correct to point out that people who believe they suffer from TN2 report widely divergent patterns of pain and widely different responses to meds. To me, this reflects the wastebasket quality of TN2.

As for stress and heart attacks, I can say this from unfortunate experience. A single underlying condition has apparently been at work inside me to make me vulnerable to kidney, heart, and brain events, and that condition is the build-up of fatty plaques in the arteries. That there can be many “different” organ failures from the same cause: eating poorly and sedentary habits that lead to cholesterol build-up in my blood vessels, which are of course are everywhere in my body. By the same token, it could be argued that there can be many “different” pain events from the same cause: stress leading to injury of the nerve, which are, like blood vessels, everywhere in my body. (I should point out that I in fact believe there is another force at play in my case, to wit, a virus! Why? Because I experienced a virus-like attack prior to the onset of body and, later, facial pain. You can find a stray mention of this in the literature. For a while, my “whatever It takes” doctor diagnosed me with “active” Epstein-Barr. While he never came to the conclusion that the virus caused nerve injury, I see no reason why it couldn’t. It is an extreme case, but the Herpes virus does cause AIDS, doesn’t it? A positive medical entity if ever there was one.

I don’t know what to say about Kendrick’s theory connecting stress to physical disease, but it is at least the case that stress can make one more vulnerable to disease, In which case we can debate the meaning of “cause” – or ask to specify the specific mind-body bridge that’s crossed.

BTW, I also read Striking Back – and was struck by another passage, in which Casey not disapprovingly cites 7 different kinds of facial pain, as delineated by another physician, reserving the term ATN for the psychogenic sort. Casey, the author in 2004, has apparently changed his mind, to judge from the statements he makes as a lecturer in 2014 (video posted to this group).

1. Yes, you asked about the bite correction for my (thankfully temporary) TN1 -- and I answered. Please scroll up.

2. Your "theorizing a fantasy scenario" well reflects what I was trying to say. We pay routine tribute to the idea that mind and body interact, but recoil at any theorizing that a mind problem, like depression, causes a body/brain problem. I think it is really important to establish that it might not go that way: that we should therefore try different meds and modalities of treatment. That's a great and liberating idea. In my case, though, these trials and errors were made well before I ever heard of trigeminal neuralgia. Moreover, Red, when you yourself tried to catalogue the number of meds used by TN patients, you admit you "hit a wall": there were simply too many to count and generalizations became impossible. I would think that would make you reluctant to say that TN2 responds to the few specific drugs you now cite. For many people , they don't. It also raises the question of what to make of the wide variety of pain descriptions and patterns under the one umbrella of TN2. You also mention "definite markers." I heard about Substance P and fibromyalgia years ago. I should see what they're saying now. All I'm saying is that some cases of TN2 may well be caused by the wear and tear of stinking thinking. Indeed, this wear and tear might lead directly to the production of Substance P, whatever that is. We know stress is a negative. Why shouldn't we expect that at some point it results in severe disruption or breakage. I can't help but think that it is no coincidence I have 2 kinds of soft tissue (as opposed to joint) pain that have independently, correctly or not, been labeled psychogenic. If I am, as a whole being, stressed out, it would be unsurprising to learn that my body is breaking down at any number of its weakest links.

Has the concept of "conversion hysteria" been entirely debunked? I don't think so, despite the unseemly rush (in academic time) to paInt Freud as a quack. I'm wondering: are there any folks out there who have gone into remission after seeing a mind doctor for their pain? How would we find the answer to this question, anyway?


Woman with the electric teeth said:

I remember you saying you had had a bite correction and it actually corrected the problem. I can never get any dentist or doctor to take that idea seriously though.

As for the heart disease/virus connection, I don't find this a strange idea. I know many people have posited a virus connection to heart attacks, for example, both from the idea of weakening the heart, and from the damage to inflammatory repair systems etc. Viruses can certainly be highly disruptive. Well, hell, they can kill people - how much proof do we need that they can do damage? I know one of things that viruses can do is change the structure of things; they can literally rebuild or permanently transform the function of something in the body. If that has happened to you, you could perhaps (I'm merely theorizing a fantasy scenario here, not making a real suggestion!) have had a virus that has permanently disabled a part of the nerve sheath repair system and all the nerves in your body are not being adequately maintained, leading to breakdowns anywhere in your body where wear is heaviest, so you experience it in your kidneys, your heart, your facial nerves and your mental functions. This would mean you could exhibit kidney disease, heart disease, neuralgia and 'mental illness' all from the same source, but my money would be on the fact that no doctor would ever put all those things together and come up with a virus as cause; they would almost certainly think they were separate problems.

It's been my experience of Western medicine that it is not holistic; big pictures are not their strong point.

As for the cholesterol theory, Gary Taubes,, Robert Lustig & Co, and even Kendrick if I recall, would all put the prime suspect there as an insulin problem and not, per se, a cholesterol problem. There is growing evidence that heart attacks, diabetes, gallstones and indeed most of the major Western illnesses, can be laid at the door of 'sugar', not fat, and that a misfiring insulin reaction is to blame for just about all of it, starting with obesity, which leads to heart disease/diabetes, and so on and so on...

For all we know, all us TN sufferers are suffering from a rare form of damage from too many cakes and sweets!

thehoward said:

My reaction is the same: Amazing! I wonder if you have heard of anyone else like you or whether you are as rare as the poor individuals who have had the connection severed (by accident) between their right and left brains, who have taught so much to neurologists. It seems we should learn something from your case. I'm not sure I know just what it is, though.

I had a week of toothache (top and bottom molars) accompanied by shocks to one side of the head (just above the affected teeth). This pain was diagnosed by a dentist as TN and he actually rid me of both by correcting my bite. This temporary TN1 on the one side did not, at any time, displace my TN2. It came on top of it. And, boy, was it an education: I was almost thankful I had TN2. The shocks! I also don't have many of the other types of experiences that are reported here. I don't have sensitivities to wind. I don't have triggers. I don't have breakthrough pain. I “only” have 24/7, bilateral all-encompassing boring/burning that grows worse as the day wears on. Having experienced the unfamiliar TN1 on top of the familiar TN2, I have to say they feel completely different. And both feel quite different from my fibromyalgia, which is a below-the-neck thing. Therefore it is hard for me to accept that they can be “the same, only different,” as you have concluded. Is TN2 the same as TN1, only not as intense and not continuous? Hard for me to see. It is no doubt correct to point out that people who believe they suffer from TN2 report widely divergent patterns of pain and widely different responses to meds. To me, this reflects the wastebasket quality of TN2.

As for stress and heart attacks, I can say this from unfortunate experience. A single underlying condition has apparently been at work inside me to make me vulnerable to kidney, heart, and brain events, and that condition is the build-up of fatty plaques in the arteries. That there can be many “different” organ failures from the same cause: eating poorly and sedentary habits that lead to cholesterol build-up in my blood vessels, which are of course are everywhere in my body. By the same token, it could be argued that there can be many “different” pain events from the same cause: stress leading to injury of the nerve, which are, like blood vessels, everywhere in my body. (I should point out that I in fact believe there is another force at play in my case, to wit, a virus! Why? Because I experienced a virus-like attack prior to the onset of body and, later, facial pain. You can find a stray mention of this in the literature. For a while, my “whatever It takes” doctor diagnosed me with “active” Epstein-Barr. While he never came to the conclusion that the virus caused nerve injury, I see no reason why it couldn’t. It is an extreme case, but the Herpes virus does cause AIDS, doesn’t it? A positive medical entity if ever there was one.

I don’t know what to say about Kendrick’s theory connecting stress to physical disease, but it is at least the case that stress can make one more vulnerable to disease, In which case we can debate the meaning of “cause” – or ask to specify the specific mind-body bridge that’s crossed.

BTW, I also read Striking Back – and was struck by another passage, in which Casey not disapprovingly cites 7 different kinds of facial pain, as delineated by another physician, reserving the term ATN for the psychogenic sort. Casey, the author in 2004, has apparently changed his mind, to judge from the statements he makes as a lecturer in 2014 (video posted to this group).

Howard, I suggest a reading of the survey results linked from the bottom of our main page, for patients referred by a medical professional to mental health evaluation. Key among the detailed results were the following, as summarized in an article by Dr. Allen Frances in his blog on Psychology Today:

"Fifty-five responders (30%) were told that their physical symptoms were caused totally or in part by a mental condition. 'Psychogenic pain' was named by 22 patients, of whom 17 disagreed with the diagnosis or other information provided by the mental health professional. Several patient narratives expressed outrage that a psychological professional had refused to believe their chronic pain had caused their depression - not the other way around."

"68 responders were prescribed medication by a mental health professional. Of these, 60 reported "no change" in their outcomes."

===================

I personally believe that the entire field of psychosomatic medicine is a dangerous and unscientific fraud that directly contributes to significant harms in medical patients who are denied further medical investigation and treatment because of psychiatric findings in their medical records. Others are of course free to disagree. I have contributed as much here as I'm able, so I'll leave the discussion. I shall continue to write and do research on behalf of chronic pain patients who are written off by medical or psychiatric doctors as head cases.

Regards all,

Red

Thanks Cleo, for the link.

I must admit, however, that I am of two minds concerning the use of psycho-active drugs in treatment of either mental health issues or chronic pain. At times and for brief periods, such meds appear to have a role to play in managing acute pain or disturbances to consciousness. The case is much less clear for long-term use in chronic conditions.

In the interest of our members' safety, I should offer an observation, with no disrepect or dismissal intended toward Cleo. Be advised that there is now a very active and spreading "psychiatric survivor" movement in the US and Europe. Literally millions of US citizens are now under treatment with various anti-depressant meds, and there is ample evidence that we are vastly over-medicated. In long-term use, some of these meds can be not only harmful but physically toxic. Many people are trying to get OFF psychoactive meds, and having a very difficult time doing so.

Thus my suggestion to members: before you use any of these meds under a doctor's care, FIRST look it up at http://www.rxlist.com, read the entire information available, and become informed on its risks as well as claimed benefits. Discuss the risks with your physician, and require that he or she monitor you often enough to detect whether you are experiencing outcomes that may be harmful to your health or well-being.

Go in Peace and Power

Red

Cleo, yes, that's been my experience. From the start, even when my doctor was theorizing about what could be physically causing my pain, I was responding to amitriptyline, a drug then and now used to treat fibro and TN, technically an antidepressant. In addition, I was responding to alprazolam, an anti-anxiety drug, which far fewer people have been taking for pain, certainly for as long as I have -- though it makes some sense, doesn't it, that a disorder characterized by overactive nerves (whatever the cause) might be treated by calming the entire nervous system? I have also tried a significant number of drugs being prescribed for TN, but nothing has replaced these two in long-term, and I mean l o n g - term, effectiveness. How effective are they? Not nearly enough to make my life a happy one. But just enough to make it a negotiable one. Were it not for my 2 "mental" drugs, I'd be unable to form a coherent thought, except perhaps a suiciidal one.

Red, my intention here is not what you may think. I am a devil's advocate. It is just my way of trying to figure things out. I'm this way by nature and training. I always ask the rude questions, hopefully not rudely, but at that I don't always succeed. Believe me: I want you to be right about who the (well-meaning) frauds really are here. I don't seek the identity of Nutcase, and this is not how I present myself and my afflictions to people. But I do admit to having experienced depression and stress before I developed chronic pain, and so I'm willing to explore all options. The fact is, I don't know what did this to me. And who is to say it couldn't have been a virus, or all that depression and stress. Or both. Yes, I'm pissed that my doctor seemed to give up on my body and blame my mind. I do want to know, though, whether he had access to info, or tests, or "markers" of some kind that could have told him definitively: "body." Does he have access to them NOW? I'm not even sure, after all this discussion, after the reading I've done, what the answer is. Neither "atypical" nor "from an unknown cause" relieves my pain any. Why is my pain protocol still the same as it ever was?


Cleo said:

The mental health doctor medication list for those interested in if its the pain or brain being treated properly.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/mental-health-medicatio...