Gamma knife

The second time they gave me the new version . Its called a Cyberknife. To answer your question its a bit of a chore. You know how weird and off-the-wall TN can be. I had the Cyberknife. 2 wks later TN was much better. I quit the meds I was on and all seemed ok except for an occasional mild shock. Then in about 2 mos or so, I started getting numbness all over one side of my face from top to bottom. And my right teeth. All numb. I'm assuming that was from the nerve damage done to the Trig nerve by the CK. So the experiences were more like when you hit your funny bone real hard. Its not really a pain, its not really an ongoing electric shock, but a numbness -- which of course is over in a few minutes and your arm is normal again. But thats the feeling I have had for last two yrs. But,,,,,no stabbing pain and no whamming electric shocks to my face from the TN. So.....I guess you can say the CK took away the whamming electric shocks to my face. Went to my neuro about all the other feelings. I was inquiring about doing an MVD. He said he thought he could control what I'm going through now with meds. So, I'm on 900 mg Tegretol and 150 Lyrica. Its working pretty well. I still feel some of those nerve twinges in my face but its very manageable. No elec shocks, no stabbing pains. Neuro said he thought there might be some neuropath;y in there with the feelings and twinges I described. I'd say probably so, from the damage to the Trig nerve by the CK. If I had it to do over again, I would ask for the GK because the GK treatment lasted 10 yrs for me. The drs usually know more than we do and he may not have agreed with me, but I would have asked for it instead of CK because of the bad numbness I have. Buttttt,,,, I'm doing ok......as long as I take my meds on time. AND....as long as I get a good 8 - 9 hrs sleeep. I have come to believe this helps out a lot !!

elstep said:

Jimmy how did the GK work for the second time you had it done? How are you now?

Cyber Knife has somewhat less precision and about 6 times the spillover around the target zone of the radiation beams, versus Gamma Knife. Both are INTENDED to create a scar (lesion) on the nerve, to reduce its efficiency in transmitting sharp spikes of nerve activity. Facial numbness is a common side effect of both procedures, though numbness is considered a blessing by many patients.

Regards, Red

Thanks Jim and Red. I wonder how Albee is doing. Hope your well Albee and drop us line when your up to it. x

Red , you are right about a blessing. After I first started getting this numbness I got somewhat dismayed by some people's grumbling. They wantd everything to be back just like it was. The used car ain't never gonna be like a used one again.....not with this disorder. At any rate, I gently told a few of them would they rather have all their feeling back and the pains and shocks back too??? Pretty much end of discussion. Thanks for the info on the CK. I did not know about the being LESS precise. I thought it was better since it was newer. But, like I said I would opt for another GK. But its a done deal and at least I'm out of pain and big, big shocks. So, the neuropathy, or whatever you can call it, I'm feeling is probably from this spill over and doing more damage to the nerve than the GK.

Richard A. "Red" Lawhern said:

Cyber Knife has somewhat less precision and about 6 times the spillover around the target zone of the radiation beams, versus Gamma Knife. Both are INTENDED to create a scar (lesion) on the nerve, to reduce its efficiency in transmitting sharp spikes of nerve activity. Facial numbness is a common side effect of both procedures, though numbness is considered a blessing by many patients.

Regards, Red

Red, before I had done my GK back in 2000 I read up on the MVD. I was torn between the two and frankly just went with the GK when the neuro told me it was available in Birmingham. Why is it that some NS opt for GK or CK and some opt for MVD? My gut feeling is they don't do many MVDs, or they doin't feel reel comfortable doing a MVD, or as in my drs case they did GK and CK because they said....and used the main buzzword "invasive"....and said "its less invasive than doing a surgery like MVD". I was submissive and went with what they said. They know more than I do was myu attitude. But my main question here is why do some do the GK/CK and some MVD???

crystalv said:

Hope it went well. Please let us know how you're doing when you feel up to it. Fingers crossed!

Well the photo of Albee answers my question..... hope you get 10 years pain free Albee , like Jim did x

Yep Elstep. I agree. I have never seen that before -- not with a GK. Maybe Red knows something. I can see he is much more knowledgable than me . When I had a GK I came out of it, went to Cracker Barrel for lunch and went home and back to my daily chores. Nothing like I see in the photo. Mine was done in Birmingham, AL . Albee's apparently done in Silver Springs -- close to Washington DC. Geesh. I don't know.

elstep said:

Well the photo of Albee answers my question..... hope you get 10 years pain free Albee , like Jim did x

My surmise is that surgeons do GK/CK because they are accredited to hospitals which have an expensive radio surgery center sucking up overhead when it isn't being used. On the other side of that equation, I've heard experienced neurosurgeons call the GK procedure "barbaric" because of the damage it can cause to areas around the nerve in adhesions and arachnoiditis. The required surgeon manual skill levels in MVD are also arguably higher than those of GK.

That said, GK is potentially more appropriate than MVD for some patients -- particularly those with a history of stroke, heart attack, or high blood pressure requiring blood thinner medications. My personal opinion is that GK is only marginally less "invasive" than MVD -- and only in the sense that GK does not break the blood-brain barrier or crfeate a substantive risk of meningitis infections or CNS fluid leaks. In patients for whom the predominant symptoms are Atypical TN or a trigeminal neuropathy created by surgery or blunt force trauma, neither procedure has a reliable record of good outcomes.

Just my two Red cents, for whatever they're worth...

Regards, Red

Rightly or wrongly, I agree totally. My first inclination was your first point........a $million piece of equipment that needed paid for. After much thought about the matter your 2nd point was also a thought I had. Some drs have the delicacy to feel comfortable doing the mvd and some don't. I have even had the thought that a female NS with good skills might have an advantage in MVD b/c a woman's touch is often a much needed blessing in surgeries.

Richard A. "Red" Lawhern said:

My surmise is that surgeons do GK/CK because they are accredited to hospitals which have an expensive radio surgery center sucking up overhead when it isn't being used. On the other side of that equation, I've heard experienced neurosurgeons call the GK procedure "barbaric" because of the damage it can cause to areas around the nerve in adhesions and arachnoiditis. The required surgeon manual skill levels in MVD are also arguably higher than those of GK.

That said, GK is potentially more appropriate than MVD for some patients -- particularly those with a history of stroke, heart attack, or high blood pressure requiring blood thinner medications. My personal opinion is that GK is only marginally less "invasive" than MVD -- and only in the sense that GK does not break the blood-brain barrier or crfeate a substantive risk of meningitis infections or CNS fluid leaks. In patients for whom the predominant symptoms are Atypical TN or a trigeminal neuropathy created by surgery or blunt force trauma, neither procedure has a reliable record of good outcomes.

Just my two Red cents, for whatever they're worth...

Regards, Red

Hi Folks: Wanted to share an update here as it has now been almost 24hour as well as my thinking/thought process to commit to doing it.

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The anxiety (previously mentioned) subsided after I did the walk through the day before and grilled each of the various Drs (there are many and each have their own role and responsibilities for this to work). Further, Ive worked in Electronics/Technology my entire life so I wanted to understand alot about that specific machine. Was so relaxed was even able to do a 'last supper" out at my fav burger dive.

So checking in for the Gamma knife was much easier than the previous Glycerol Injection, which was done in the main hospital in the Operating Rooom as this is done in the Neurology Center (seperate building). They were very patient with my many questions. Getting the frame attached (the use 4 screw onto the skull - 2 in the front and 2 in the back) was much simpler than I expected (it kinda looked like my head was stuck inside a TV). They had used local anesthesia (I am not a fan of the general anesthesia - the wrong dosage or that person has a bad day and you are done for this round) to get the frame on.

Next up was to do new MRIs --> they do microslices of the targeted area to create a 3D model on the screen. I was surprised how fast this took given all the previous MRIs and Brain scans took over 45 mins. Also afterwards Dr Jacobson let me see the screen and flip the nerve over/around. I could see exactly where we attacked it last time (with the Glycerol Injection) and where we hit it this time with the Gamma knife

Then they wheel you back to the room where they put a bubble (plastic) on your frame to do specific measurements - they need to ensure they do not hit any of the frame, etc when they attach the helmet to the frame. Also during this 45 min period, the Neurosurgeon and his team are reviewing the 3D model of the nerve and surrounding area to pinpont exactly where they want the gamma beams to target. Also during this period the expert (in this case was Director of Physicists), is running diagnostics and ensuring that machine is ready for us (there is a long checklist - think pilot checking his list before he gives the green light for the push back). Also, there is a Dr who determines the exact strength of the radiation - this is somewhat standardized, but still they have the final call. Regardless, all these are happening separately and there is a a clear owner who has the authority to make the final call, but each as done as a team. My belief is more minds are better than a single expert.

Then they rolled me into the room, placed me onto the table (slides in/out) and slid me in to attach the special helmet. They allowed me to bring in my own music, so we turned that up and in I went. Unfortunately, they slid me out and back in and out, the expert found a concern with the machine - this sent my anxiety of the charts as they took me out of the room. They nurses did not want to move me by the Dr in charge of the machine made it clear that no one was going to use this machine until it was perfect and ready for a precise procedure. It was about 10 min and they calmed me down and brought me back in. I made them change the CDs (I brought a bunch) to something more soothing than rocking. Then they slid me in. I had concerns about the holes in the helmet (where the gamma rays go through) were within 2 inches of my eyes, after they explained I understand that they travel in straight lines and had no risk of taking a turn towards my eyes I was OK with it.


Then it begun, it felt warm in the machine, but it was very, very boring as being human we cannot see gamma rays so I went to sleep so much the Drs complained afterwards that they couldn't hear the music over my snoring. Ha ha ha

The slid me out, took off the helmet, rolled me back to my room. After a few min they took off the helmet and applied a dressing to small holes that were created by the screws. They monitored me for an hour, let me eat, I felt naseau and dizzy - the local anesthesia wore off and the spots where the srews were killed with pain. They gave me tylenol and within 10 min they stopped stinging/aching. Also I took my normal medicine (neurotin and tramadol), then they discharged me after the full hour.

I was completely fatigued and exhausted. The naseau and dizziness lasted until I took a long nap in the evening. It was great to be with the wife and kids. Had dinner and felt strong - put laundry away, moved holiday boxes, helped with baths, then went to bed early 9PM (note I did take my anxienty/sleeping pill to get to sleep quickly). Slept solidly (for once!!!) until time to get the wife/kids up/out to work/school. Unfortunatley, I was dizzy and a bit nasues when I stood up or tried to walk...note this is normal and expected within the first 48 hour.


just awaking from a nap and a nice bowl of homemade soup, I feel strong again, walk, stand - Id like to drive to run some errands but will call and have my father come take me out for awhile.

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Just a little about my thinking and planning. My TN was so bad in the beginning, every day I could not understand how that I could not be dying and really wanted to dig out the nerve and kill it myself.

Over 2 months or so I researched and reviewed all the options, when I met the neurosurgeon I immediately decided (note all decisions were made with input/discussions with loved ones) to schedule the Glycerol Injection. I had a 50-75% chance to provide some level of relief within 48 hours with any major invasive surgery (outpatient ie no ICU required). Had that done on Oct 19th and I received aprx 30-40% pain reduction which was HUGE for me and was able to cut my med doses nearly in half and was able to return fully to work and crush my 2011 objectives.

Unfortunately, a side effect was that muscles in my temple area were torn (think that surgeon cranked open my mouth much further than I had ever opened it) - I was referred to Physical Therapy, which I thought was a bunch of BS, but after 2 weeks of doing my tongue exercises they temple pain subsided. It did help me learn a great deal about how I physically responded to stressful events (including a massive painful TN episode)

I am 42 years old, have a 4 yr old daughter and a 7 yr old son and helped start a business that we sold to a Fortune 50 Company in 2010. I am a key executive for this business and helped grow it by 150% in the first year inside the new much larger company. My objectives to deal with TN were to identify the paths that led to some amount of pain relief with the shortest/least invasive recovery. My plan is that the Gylerol Injection + now the Gamma knife along with sporadic acupuncture + massage therapy (not limited to myofacial) along with the fact I am building a *real* happy place - not some made up place in my mind, but a room in the house with all my fav things and a place were I can go during a major pain episode or when I just need a few minutes to myself. That last one alone has helped a GREAT deal.

I am fully away of the limitations of my initial procedures and do realize through out this journey of life that most likely I will require additional TN procedures in order to cope with this pain. Should the timing be right and I can carve out enough to time to recover from a major surgical procedure I would do it, but til then I am going to try everything under the sun to help cope and keep my wife/kids/business on track in the coming years.

Ill keep you updated on my progress and recovery. I really appreciate and encourage the dialogue on this topic.

Cheers,
Albee

Thank you for sharing and letting us all know how you are Albee. We have all had you in our thoughts and I guess you know we have all been rooting for the best possible outcome for you. We are proud of you, well done, let the healing begin!

I hope your experience will be success and pain free as mine was for 10 yrs. I thank God it gave me 10 yrs of relief.

Jackie said:

Thank you for sharing and letting us all know how you are Albee. We have all had you in our thoughts and I guess you know we have all been rooting for the best possible outcome for you. We are proud of you, well done, let the healing begin!

Thanks Jimmy and Jackie!!! Lets hope so a decade of pain free is HUGE!!!!! Id take a few years and be happy

Albee good luck bro I’m sure you’re gonna be fine…

Albee said:

Thanks Jimmy and Jackie!!! Lets hope so a decade of pain free is HUGE!!! Id take a few years and be happy

You're welcome Albee. I was taken around and met with the different drs involved, but not as many as you were. Probably b/c you asked so many questions. In my case I just wanted to get it done. So much pain. Such horrific pain in my teeth. I described like someone putting a hatpin to my gums and driving it in with a hammer. God thats scary. The main dr I met was the one that would actually be doing the aiming, running the machine, etc. A young black doctor about 30-35 yrs of age. Man, all I could say was she was good. What a blessing. It took 8 mos for it to fully take affect. Started tapering down in about 2 mos or so. Started scaling down on the meds at about 6 mos. Fully off them and back to life as normal at 8 mos. Yours could be different. We'll see. Good luck, and God bless you.

Albee cant believe you managed to sleep whilst having it done! Nice that your family are understanding for you to have a you room.

Well done to you and Jim, I wish you both many many years of pain free living.

It has now been 60 hrs since my GN surgery ended. I am still struggling with some dizziness, nausea and balance issues - think its related to the anesthesia (Im a bit sensitive), but starting to get anxious that there is a larger problem. After a long nap, I felt very, very strong, but waned after a few hours. Any thoughts?

Hi, Albee— I hope things get better and better for you as the radiation takes effect and the nerve calms down. I remember noticing that after the GK, there were windows of pain-free time and that sleep was more than restorative—it was wonderful! I was once again full of energy when I woke up! (I was 38 when I had the first GK done, 1.5 years after the onset). I took the windows of energy and feeling really strong as a good sign that my body was responding to not being in pain (and being on less medication!). I did not realize how much energy it was taking to mentally push the pain aside and get on with the day. I hope your strength continues and the windows become longer and longer amounts of time...my prayers are with you!

Sincerely,

LyndaS

What larger problem do you think there is?

It may take you a week to get the general anesthesia totally out of your system. Give it at least that long before you start spooking at shadows, Albee.

Regards, Red