So what about Sjogrens?

There has been a lot of interesting materials brought out lately especially involving cervicogenic causes of TN, but in reading a lot of personal stories, it occurred to me that a common theme among them is very consistent with Sjogrens Syndrome. As many of you may know, Sjögren syndrome (SS) is a chronic, inflammatory, autoimmune disease characterized by lymphocytic infiltration of exocrine glands, leading to dry mouth and dry eyes.. Peripheral nervous system disease, manifesting commonly as peripheral sensory neuropathy approximately a quarter of the patients. Less frequently, cranial neuropathy can also occur, which is especially likely to involve the trigeminal nerve.

There was a fairly recent (and overlooked) study done establishing that link.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2812738/

More recently Johns Hopkins has been looking into it and in a recent article stated:

"Sjögren’s syndrome can cause numbness or burning of the face, called “trigeminal neuralgia.” Pain in the back of the throat, which may worsen while swallowing, is called “glossopharyngeal neuralgia.” Patients with trigeminal or glossopharyngeal neuralgia can have agonizing mouth and facial pain. These neuropathies may co-exist with other neuropathies in different parts of the body. For example, up to 20% of patients with a “small-fiber” neuropathy may also have trigeminal neuropathy.

Medicines which may help alleviate symptoms in small-fiber neuropathy may also have efficacy in trigeminal neuralgia. Such medications may include a class of agents which are typically used to treat seizures, and include gabapentin, topiramate, andpregabalin. In seizure disorders, paroxysmal and irregular bursts of electrical activity in brain nerves may lead to propagation of seizures. Similarly, in Sjögren’s neuropathy, irritative electrical signals produced by nerves in the skin instead of the brain, may similarly contribute to pain. Just as anti-seizure medicines can dampen electrical activity of brain cells, the dampening of electrical activity produced by pain-fibers may ameliorate burning pain. It is important to note that use of these symptomatic medications does not target the neuron-inflammation which may be contributing to neuropathy. In such cases, judicious use of immunosuppressant medications should be considered."

This doesn't mean DIFFERENT treatment just additional treatment. Which may mitigate a number of other complaints of fatique, general pain during a flair etc. (not to mention give credence to others such as "dental pain") I'm curious how many here have had that discussion, been diagnosed with SS, or for that matter ever had biopsies done for "small fiber neuropathy" It also explains why so many are getting relief from the Sodium Channel blockers. It also explains why opiates make symptoms WORSE for so many

There are blood tests for Sjogrens but a negative doesn't mean you don't have it. It may be worth a look for many of us. If we can eliminate one more cause (or treat it if it is) we can at the very least improve chances of a surgical approach (or avoid an unsuccessful outcome)

I imagine it hard for patients to bridge the gap between what they have already been told and a new idea.

This thread, I really REALLY like, my concern is a lot of face pain sufferers are likely to gloss over it and possibly think this isn't me, I have some of those symptoms but they are side effects of my medication having spent previous time focused on the pain element- understandably.


I'd comment that alot of face pain diagnosed as TN isn't TN as classification intends. Now I'm not trying to be critical of neurologists, I've been guilty of it in the past and I would say the majority of medics have, jumping to conclusions and not listening to the whole patient narrative, and missing info and not conducting/ referring for the right tests if appropriate. I dare say I'll make the same mistake (just deleted countless) several times in the future.


I've had SS patients in the past who state they have dry eyes/ mouth, and my thoughts being ok lets move on, it has little or nothing to do with your presenting complaint. Wrong, you live and learn.
In bold in case folk have are already thinking of leaving the thread. Sjogrens ( can't find the omelette) syndrome along with a host of other connective tissue disorders are implicated in facial pain. How many folk on this site have a connective tissue disorder and don't relate a possible connection to their facial symptoms? RA, SS, mixed connective tissue, SLE, scleroderma to name some, Psoariasis, possibly PMR. I know a search of the psoriasis forum on ben's friends shows a greater comment of TN than the national average.
Alot of connective tissue disorders, are precursors to more serious ones, indeed folks with SS are blood tested positive for Rheumatoid factor, as are others, with connective tissue disease, without signs of rheumatoid arthritis ( actually doesn't mean they have it or will develop it to my understanding). In the most part autoimmune connective tissue disorders along with SS and others need a genetic and enviromental factor to be problematic. Most commentators, site a vascular cause as a factor in the case of TN/ facial pain due to connective tissue disorders, an additional factor of causation could be soft tissue ligament/ muscular dysfunction of the neck (little research available) . These structures are recognised as being affected in a wide range of connective tissue disorders. Some disorders such as Polymyalgia (PMR) are often not considered as connective tissue disorders. That said, vasculitis would be sufficient.
SS and connective tissue disorders are more prevalent in women as is TN, and in the case of SS it is not so prevalent that the low incidence of TN makes no sense. How many folk have connective tissue disorders and TN, probabley many, and the correlation overlooked.
A very interesting SS and cranial neuropathy link. Folks suffering with TN according to classification due to SS/ connective tissue disorders, wouldn't it be likely that they show signs of neuropathy?

I was diagnosed with TN almost a year ago now. At the same time my bloods started to read a positive ANA. I kind of expected to have some form of autoimmune, the woman in my family are riddled with them. I just didn’t expect it until I was late in my 30’s like my mother. I was 25 when diagnosed. I am waiting on a follow up appointment to have my blood work further investigated. They think it could be primary biliary cirrhosis. However, I had my eyes tested last year also cos I felt they were sore and I might be straining to see. Eyesight was 20/20 but the optician did a moisture test and informed me that while I am still producing tears, that my oil glands in the eyes were completely blocked. Gave me drops and told to come back if no relief. Never used them. TN started to flare not long after and that became the bigger picture.
In the last month my tongue has been absolutely killing me. It gets very sore, almost a burnt feeling at the tip and dry mouth. My doctor prescribed steroids, said it might be a bit inflamed. They worked for two weeks and am now in the same pain burnt feeling on my tongue. I don’t blame my meds for this because I am now on the lowest dose ever of them before this pain started.
My mother has sjorgens syndrome and my neurologist in October told me that the autoimmune that most likes to attack the fifth cranial nerve is sjorgens syndrome. I very very rarely find articles about this connection so I am very interested in your discussion.

Suzi

Looking into Sjögren's Syndrome and TN, it is surprising that this hasn't been highlighted before to my knowledge. Sjögren's Syndrome is a connective tissue disorder, and in the main searching normal sites there is little mention besides exoocrine secretions.
Although strict classification of TN, typical or atypical, make no mention of sensory loss, numbness, tingling etc. in the face, many on this site report these symptoms after recieving a TN diagnosis. Connective tissue diseases are relatively commen and numerous in various forms.
I'd love to hear the typical process of diagnosis at a neuro appointment, are these conditions considered?
Further links to Sjögren's Syndrome, connective tissue disease and TN/ trigeminal neuropathy are below. Consider that Sjögren's Syndrome, is one of many connective tissue diseases that could have an action on the trigeminal nerve complex.
http://www.jns-journal.com/article/S0022-510X(01)00501-9/abstract
http://rheumatology.oxfordjournals.org/content/23/4/301.short
http://journals.lww.com/jclinrheum/Abstract/2006/06000/Trigeminal_N...
http://www.neurology.org/content/21/6/609.extract
http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=683096
http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/8122819
http://journals.lww.com/jclinrheum/Abstract/2010/08000/Clues_for_Pr...


Quite a few links for those interested, but it does make me wonder how many folk already have a connective tissue disease, possibly ignored by their specialist, or in those with a family history, TN often being the first symptom, and if considered open up different treatment options.



suzi said:

I was diagnosed with TN almost a year ago now. At the same time my bloods started to read a positive ANA. I kind of expected to have some form of autoimmune, the woman in my family are riddled with them. I just didn't expect it until I was late in my 30's like my mother. I was 25 when diagnosed. I am waiting on a follow up appointment to have my blood work further investigated. They think it could be primary biliary cirrhosis. However, I had my eyes tested last year also cos I felt they were sore and I might be straining to see. Eyesight was 20/20 but the optician did a moisture test and informed me that while I am still producing tears, that my oil glands in the eyes were completely blocked. Gave me drops and told to come back if no relief. Never used them. TN started to flare not long after and that became the bigger picture.
In the last month my tongue has been absolutely killing me. It gets very sore, almost a burnt feeling at the tip and dry mouth. My doctor prescribed steroids, said it might be a bit inflamed. They worked for two weeks and am now in the same pain burnt feeling on my tongue. I don't blame my meds for this because I am now on the lowest dose ever of them before this pain started.
My mother has sjorgens syndrome and my neurologist in October told me that the autoimmune that most likes to attack the fifth cranial nerve is sjorgens syndrome. I very very rarely find articles about this connection so I am very interested in your discussion.

Suzi

Low dose naltrexone has had remarkable results with many people with trigeminal neuralgia according to my research. It fits right in with your observations with Sjogrens. No side effects is the best thing.

Joe,

Accordingly could you expand on the naltrexone connection?

Joe said:

Low dose naltrexone has had remarkable results with many people with trigeminal neuralgia according to my research. It fits right in with your observations with Sjogrens. No side effects is the best thing.

Mod,

Could you expand on " It also explains why opiates make symptoms WORSE for so many".

As for Joe and his comment I'm interested as to the pharmaceuticals/ action/ reason. thanks.

Joe, any more input on the naltrexone? do you have any specific case studies you can share that you have come across in your studies?

Joe said:

Low dose naltrexone has had remarkable results with many people with trigeminal neuralgia according to my research. It fits right in with your observations with Sjogrens. No side effects is the best thing.

  • The brain responds to the pain medicine by increasing the number of receptors for the drug, and the nerve cells in the brain stop functioning
  • The body stops producing endorphins (the body's natural painkillers) because it is receiving opiates instead
  • The degeneration of the nerve cells in the brain causes a physical dependency on an external supply of opiates

This is way overly simplified of course, but covers the gist of it...............



aiculsamoth said:

Mod,

Could you expand on " It also explains why opiates make symptoms WORSE for so many".

As for Joe and his comment I'm interested as to the pharmaceuticals/ action/ reason. thanks.

Thanks for the info.

ModSupport said:

  • The brain responds to the pain medicine by increasing the number of receptors for the drug, and the nerve cells in the brain stop functioning
  • The body stops producing endorphins (the body's natural painkillers) because it is receiving opiates instead
  • The degeneration of the nerve cells in the brain causes a physical dependency on an external supply of opiates

This is way overly simplified of course, but covers the gist of it...............



aiculsamoth said:

Mod,

Could you expand on " It also explains why opiates make symptoms WORSE for so many".

As for Joe and his comment I'm interested as to the pharmaceuticals/ action/ reason. thanks.

I have Sjogrens. My neurologist is who diagnosed it. When I presented to him with my TN symptoms, the Ssa and B antibodies were part of the initial work up he ordered.

I read an article that said 17% of people with Sjogrens have TN. More than that have a neurological symptom.

I was hoping that if I was on medicine (plaquenl) for the Sjogrens, then the TN would go away. It hasn’t , but the progression has stopped so I guess that’s something. There are other drugs that I could try but those are the “big” autoimmune suppressants and at this point for me it’s not worth trying then due to the risk of getting serious infectios illnesses and cancer. Also j couldn’t find any data on that.

It’s really nice to hear from all of you. Such a frustrating disease… So hard to understand. It feels so lonely sometimes. I feel like I’m waiting around for an invention to stop this

It is heartbreaking to hear you or anyone speak of loneliness. Hopefully having communities like LivingwithTN helps. Everyone's journey is unique, but we have found that faith has played an enormous role; we've been strengthened, found reprieve when desperately needed, and been inspired to look for answers that have been incredibly beneficial. For us, continuing to look for solutions is important. We've found both skeptics and proponents. Both are appreciated. We've wandered down false paths, but also paths that have produced encouraging and profound results. if there is anything I can do, please don't hesitate to ask.

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