Are high Carbohydrate diets causing our neurological damage?

General General TN & GPN (Old Site)
1

I discovered this evening that (high) carbohydrate diets are heavily implicated in neurological damage, especially neurodegenerative conditions. Although I had seen a lot of theorising on this, I was under the impression it wasn't proven. Not true. I found this out, perversely, from the backhanded information that ketogenic diets (very low carb) are used to treat epilepsy in children, and this is children with severe epilepsy.

It appears that the process of ketogenesis actually undoes neurological damage – specifically, by stopping the destruction of neurons and reversing the damage. There are lots of theories as to what chemical/s in the process are causing this, but the end result is the same – it works. What was most fascinating about this discovery is that they've known this since 1921! It used to be the standard treatment for both epilepsy and diabetes, until drugs came along.

I'm aware that TN is not epilepsy, nor Alzheimer's, nor Parkinson's (the diet works in ALL these diseases, to a greater or lesser extent), but you have to say to yourself we all use anti-epilepsy drugs, so at some level we ARE suffering similarly to epileptics; our brains are firing up unnaturally, and its our neurons that are doing it. And secondly, although it is 'only' the myelin sheath that we have problems with (they think!), our neurons are still being damaged. We may not have neuron death as these other diseases do, but who's not to say that's not what our 'TN1 becomes TN2' theories are all about? A lot of researchers seem to think TN2 is just the degeneration of TN1. Perhaps our genetic code means we don't experience neuron death, just demyelination. Perhaps some other environmental factor needs to be in play. Perhaps scientists just haven't recognised that we are experiencing neuron death; they just don't recognise it.

Anyhow, I thought this was hugely interesting and I was perplexed that I had never heard of it before. I think the dreaded 'Big Pharma' is playing a role here: why put people on ketogenic diets when you can put them on a pill? But I think it's sad that this knowledge and research is there and there seems to be very obvious connections, yet no-one is making them, or researching them further. They have only very recently discovered that Alzheimer's may well be Type 3 Diabetes – what if TN is Type 4?!

I'm curious now, has anyone here ever been on a ketogenic diet? Did you find it helped in any way? More importantly, have you been on a ketogenic diet long enough to see measurable results, so that you feel you can say definitely either way whether it may help or not?

They always say that TN has no relation to diet, and I've always thought that was utter horse doo-dah; everything is related to diet. I eat low carb currently for an entirely different health problem, in my gut (that's how I fell over this research), but I've always felt said gut problems and my TN were (strongly) connected and it was some kind of degeneration in my body, with the gut problems being forerunner to the TN. If this ketogenic 'cure' is neurologically significant in other neurological conditions, other than epilepsy and diabetes, and it very definitely seems to be, with more evidence appearing every day – I may not be wrong after all!

P.S. I should just add that I don't eat a ketogenic diet currently; that's very low carb, but I am now seriously considering one!

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I've always been one to eat whatever I want. When I was married, I ate fairly healthy -- standard meat, potatoes, and vegetable diet. Since I divorced 10 years ago, my diet is a little crappier. I keep myself on the go, grabbing whatever I want along the way. And slowly, my health has worsened. Disc problems, worse migraines, bowel issues, and now TN. My sister, who is somewhat of a dietary health nut (despite the fact that she is a heavy smoker), claims that all of America's health problems are due to the garbage we put in our bodies. Even if you THINK you're eating healthy, out standard meat at the standard grocery store is injected with preservatives, colorings, hormones, etc. Our vegetables are sprayed with all kinds of stuff. Even at a salad bar, the food is sprinkled with preservatives. Dannon yogurt with red fruit is laced with a bug product to make it redder. And we drink a ton of soda. I'm guilty on all counts (except the yogurt because I'm lactose intolerant). She has nagged me to go organic. I've poo-poo'ed it because it's too expensive and there isn't an organic grocery store on my routine travel routes (I'd have to go way out of my way to get there). But she MAY have some valid points. She does not have the health problems that I do. I've always argued that she can eat like this because she doesn't do anything but work as a horsefarm hand and then goes home to run her household (consisting of a husband and a dozen animals; no children). She has all the time in the world to shop for healthier foods and prepare them. I'm always on the go -- working 2 demanding jobs to make ends meet and raising a teen-ager. I'd have to have a major lifestyle overhaul in order to live her lifestyle, and I haven't been willing to do that at this point in time. But sometimes I wonder if she is right.

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I know, it's a scary thought, Cindy, isn't it? I've been in a similar situation to you, but in my case it was entirely my own fault. I've always eaten a 'good' diet, as in all my food is home-cooked from fresh ingredients, but, and it's a BIG BUT, I ate loads of junk food on top of that, in the shape of cakes, sweets, ice cream. I also overate consistently, grazing all night on fruit, eating too big portions. It may be 'healthy' food but not if you eat too much of it. The end result of all this denial is that I ended up with weight problems - never huge ones, but enough that by the time I was in my fifties it tilted over into the 'obese' category. The end result of that was I was always on a diet of one sort or another, so my weight always yo-yoed - also scientifically proven to be bad for you; worse, in fact, than just being overweight.

Anyway, I ended up with gallstones - classic cholesterol (i.e. insulin) early warning symptom. I lost all my weight, took care of myself, trying to reverse it, but lost the gallbladder anyway; it was too little too late. As soon as that was gone, I slowly slid back into the sweet bingeing, and lo and behold - I was struck down with TN.

My grandmother died of Alzheimer's and she was corpulent at the time of her death - a sweet tooth like mine (and a feeder husband). It's taken me a long, long, LONG time to accept my own blinkered stupidity and quit my destructive behaviours. It hasn't been helped of course by the constant 'everything in moderation' BS that they feed us (literally!). You can't eat sweet foods in moderation, not if you have a problem with carbs, which I patently do. They are designed to be addictive - that's why there is an obesity epidemic. As soon as I realised I couldn't 'make my peace' or be 'normal' around sweet stuff, I made the first progress I've made in years.

I don't know if this will help heal my TN, or at least stave off the degeneration, but I'm never going back to the way I was. It may not cause TN, but I know it sure as hell doesn't help!

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I really love your line of thinking. Virtually every disease could be considered Diabetes type 3,4,5,6 or at least a metabolic diseases, even genetic disease that isn't onset at birth/ conception. Why should TN be any different? Just about every illness is influenced by what we put in our mouth, in addition to environmental factors; toxins, stress and physical trauma.

Although I am a big advocate of the neck in trigeminal neuralgia, without the above, whether TN or any illness, in my line I wouldn't have enough work. Big Pharma ie money to blame? they should certainly shoulder some of the blame, but do serve a cause. However our lifestyles, egos, conditioning, state we love to place responsibility not at our door, so if told the pill is the solution, it at least hides symptoms, then we take it, hopefully job done-symptoms suppressed without taking responsibility for the other factors.

Now before vilification, I do realise the sum of the parts are not always surmountable by the individual and they need help from the medical profession, but it shouldn't negate personal responsibility, which is often ignored by the medics and the individual once symptoms are suppressed.

Ketogenic diet, I'm unsure, as it has it's downside, but carbs of a low glycemic index, most definitely, as in stop eating crap food. Good food is believe it or not cheaper, and just as easy to prepare, not on the go obviously, but it isn't that hard to prepare lunch in advance of the working day.

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Hi Aiculsamoth, nice to hear from you again. Yes, you're dead right, it seems that every day Metabolic Syndrome's parameters are being extended as they discover yet another condition that is part of the insulin problems in the body. 10 or 15 years ago, doctors would have laughed at the idea that insulin disruption could be causing Alzheimer's; they would have been very derogatory about it because all they knew was that neuron death was causing a Swiss cheese effect in the brain; now we've discovered that insulin is playing a part in it, and a major one at that. That's why I take any assertion about TN not being about this or that with a large pinch of salt. They do so very little research on TN (far less than they do on Alzheimer's, for example), they know virtually nothing about it. There's no way they can assert that diet and environmental factors paly no part in it. They just don't have that kind of information.

I know what you're saying about the ketogenic diet. When you look at it, it seems so very extreme, but the fact of the matter is research (and there's a LOT of it) shows categorically that it improves all the body stats (like insulin, cholesterol, heart and blood pressure markers). It's really inescapable, if not very vegetarian friendly! It's like fasting. To me, all my instincts say that going hungry - starving, effectively - cannot be good for you, and yet time after time, without fail, fasting is shown to improve health and increase longevity, both in animals and in humans. I guess we were just designed to go hungry occasionally. Sadly, in the Western world that doesn't happen any more. Just as sadly, malnutrition does, because that's essentially what obesity is - a form of malnutrition. We could call it First World Starvation!

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I should have been more specific. I am a big, huge advocate of fasting in part for the reasons you state ( remember a stat stating fasted worms live five times longer, and no I don't have a reference), even up to 3 weeks in duration ( hugely controversial), I meant to state long term ketogenic diets. Some folk state breakfast as the most important meal of the day (probably Kellogs), but mornings are our time for getting rid of 'rubbish', hence blocked noses, bowel movements etc, why compromise it by eating and taxing the body with digestion issues.

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Not entirely sure, but on the subject of diabetes and blood pressure there are certain surgeons who are proposing vascular compression, as in that hypothesised to cause TN1, to also be a cause of these conditions. I might say it adds possible credence as to why MVD helps TN in the first place.

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I've never heard that - very interesting! I'm off to see if I can find anything on that subject right now - thanks!

aiculsamoth said:

Not entirely sure, but on the subject of diabetes and blood pressure there are certain surgeons who are proposing vascular compression, as in that hypothesised to cause TN1, to also be a cause of these conditions. I might say it adds possible credence as to why MVD helps TN in the first place.